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Round vs Square E-Chute



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 23rd 18, 12:32 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Default Round vs Square E-Chute

Three years ago when I got back into soaring I talked to serveral riggers about a round vs square chute. The riggers, including Allen Silver, all talked me out of a square for safety reasons. If you are seriously considering a square rig, I highly recommend you speak with a qualified rigger and discuss your needs and experience. For me, with a round chute, if you exit the aircraft and pull the rip cord, the chute will open and bring you to earth. With a square you have to fly and it can deploy in a stated where it is already in a death spiral. I figure if I am under silk I am done flying for the day.
  #2  
Old June 23rd 18, 12:46 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default Round vs Square E-Chute

Ever heard of a Mae West?Â* That's when you get a line over the top of a
round canopy.Â* There are many malfunctions you can have with either type
of canopy, most are recoverable.

You don't have to "fly" an emergency ram air chute.Â* The developer of
mine told me that, during testing, he landed under the canopy hands
off.Â* I would still have a grip on the steering/braking toggles.Â* Flying
the chute is trivial; easier than flying the glider, and you fly the
same traffic pattern with the same altitudes at your turn points.Â* It
only has a steeper glide angle than the glider and much better forward
speed than a round canopy.Â* It's far more controllable than a round
canopy, too.

I took the ground school at the local jump club and only intended to
make one jump (solo).Â* It was so much fun that I did seven jumps before
deciding that I'd spent enough money that could have been used for tows.

Like they used to say - Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.

On 6/22/2018 5:32 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Three years ago when I got back into soaring I talked to serveral riggers about a round vs square chute. The riggers, including Allen Silver, all talked me out of a square for safety reasons. If you are seriously considering a square rig, I highly recommend you speak with a qualified rigger and discuss your needs and experience. For me, with a round chute, if you exit the aircraft and pull the rip cord, the chute will open and bring you to earth. With a square you have to fly and it can deploy in a stated where it is already in a death spiral. I figure if I am under silk I am done flying for the day.


--
Dan, 5J
  #3  
Old June 23rd 18, 01:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JS[_5_]
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Posts: 624
Default Round vs Square E-Chute

On Friday, June 22, 2018 at 4:46:21 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Ever heard of a Mae West?Â* That's when you get a line over the top of a
round canopy.Â* There are many malfunctions you can have with either type
of canopy, most are recoverable.

You don't have to "fly" an emergency ram air chute.Â* The developer of
mine told me that, during testing, he landed under the canopy hands
off.Â* I would still have a grip on the steering/braking toggles.Â* Flying
the chute is trivial; easier than flying the glider, and you fly the
same traffic pattern with the same altitudes at your turn points.Â* It
only has a steeper glide angle than the glider and much better forward
speed than a round canopy.Â* It's far more controllable than a round
canopy, too.

I took the ground school at the local jump club and only intended to
make one jump (solo).Â* It was so much fun that I did seven jumps before
deciding that I'd spent enough money that could have been used for tows.

Like they used to say - Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.

On 6/22/2018 5:32 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Three years ago when I got back into soaring I talked to serveral riggers about a round vs square chute. The riggers, including Allen Silver, all talked me out of a square for safety reasons. If you are seriously considering a square rig, I highly recommend you speak with a qualified rigger and discuss your needs and experience. For me, with a round chute, if you exit the aircraft and pull the rip cord, the chute will open and bring you to earth. With a square you have to fly and it can deploy in a stated where it is already in a death spiral. I figure if I am under silk I am done flying for the day.


--
Dan, 5J


Thanks for making this a separate thread.

After thinking it insane to be putting on a round chute on a wave day, I bought a square rig. Experience was 22 jumps, 2 of them solo square jumps, plus a couple of hundred paraglider landings. The early jumps were round parachutes: Tern, LL and 7TU. Looking back with square experience, they weren't very controllable.
The square makes a lot of sense. If you do not unlock the toggles, it does not accelerate to best L/D, in my case 3.5:1. Using the toggles it is extremely steerable and maneuverable. Stand up landings where you want to land are easy.

The photo of where YO landed is a great example of the places you could easily end up under a round canopy and can avoid with a square.

As Dan points out, there are various malfunction modes of parachutes.
On our first jump day, my friend had a line over / Mae West (looks like a bra instead of one large canopy) on a 28' Tern. Fortunately it was still large enough for her to do a PLF without hurting herself. Not the same with a big guy and a 22' or 24' round at any elevation.
Jim
  #4  
Old June 23rd 18, 03:04 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Round vs Square E-Chute

On Friday, June 22, 2018 at 7:32:53 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Three years ago when I got back into soaring I talked to serveral riggers about a round vs square chute. The riggers, including Allen Silver, all talked me out of a square for safety reasons. If you are seriously considering a square rig, I highly recommend you speak with a qualified rigger and discuss your needs and experience. For me, with a round chute, if you exit the aircraft and pull the rip cord, the chute will open and bring you to earth. With a square you have to fly and it can deploy in a stated where it is already in a death spiral. I figure if I am under silk I am done flying for the day.


The riggers that sell parachutes to pilots are either really old school or feel that their stock options would be too limited if they suggested squares. Or a combo of both. Look at it this way we've been chucking students out of airplanes with square mains and square reserves for over 30 years and it works. Millions of jumps, untold numbers of ugly deployments and overwhelmed students performing poorly. I'd guess most racing pilots post bail out could fly a square parachute as well as the average skydive student. If you want a second opinion go to a large dropzone on a rainy/windy day and ask the instructors round or square. The only reason to buy a round is price and that only matters used, if you are buying new the extra 500 bucks is a no brainer(That's coming from a cheap 1-26 driver.)
If I was in the business of selling glider pilots parachutes I'd hire a young tough dumb jumper to demo a typical round and then jump a square at the big races, guarantee everyone who saw the difference live would pull out a credit card.
  #5  
Old June 23rd 18, 04:53 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Round vs Square E-Chute

To quote my rigger, when asked about a round vs. squa

"A Round will get you down. A Square will get you there."

His opinion is that a square, with better directional control and a lower descent rate is a viable and desirable solution for users (or unwilling victims) who have the basic skills to line up into the wind and execute even a minimal flare as the ground approaches. His advice indicates that proper training is definitely recommended, but since we are supposedly experienced aviators with a healthy desire to make it out alive, it is better to be a Pilot In Command of the emergency equipment. A steerable, lower descent rate square chute will beat any of the semi-steerable round chutes commonly used in the sailplane community. (Provided it is implemented correctly.) Of course, because of the higher forward speed of the square design, the implications of landing downwind are a significant concern. But then attempting to land a "steerable" round in high wind conditions also presents a significant danger of being slammed backwards and then dragged.

My 2000 Paraphernalia Softie is getting close to the manufacturer's 20 year life limit. I know all the pro vs. con arguments, but since it is my own little pink body that is at stake, I intend to replace the old round with a square and take some training.

  #6  
Old June 23rd 18, 06:04 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Round vs Square E-Chute

I wonder what role terrain makes in the decision? A round seems like A better choice if trees are abundant, square if landing in a flat field.
DT
  #7  
Old June 23rd 18, 08:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Round vs Square E-Chute

To be properly considered as a emergency chute suitable for the majority of glider pilots a square chute would have to be designed to be used by pilots without jumping experience. It is very unlikely that more than a few pilots will want to, or get around to, doing that.
  #8  
Old June 23rd 18, 01:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Round vs Square E-Chute

On Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 1:04:59 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I wonder what role terrain makes in the decision? A round seems like A better choice if trees are abundant, square if landing in a flat field.
DT


Nope.
  #9  
Old June 23rd 18, 01:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Round vs Square E-Chute

On Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 4:00:01 AM UTC-4, wrote:
To be properly considered as a emergency chute suitable for the majority of glider pilots a square chute would have to be designed to be used by pilots without jumping experience. It is very unlikely that more than a few pilots will want to, or get around to, doing that.


The square reserves for pilots are designed to be used by people with no jumping experience. For all pilots care about the latest glider or flight computer it is amazing how content some are with 1600's parachute technology. Rounds are only better in price, and new not by much.
  #10  
Old June 23rd 18, 03:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Round vs Square E-Chute

On Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 1:34:16 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 4:00:01 AM UTC-4, wrote:
To be properly considered as a emergency chute suitable for the majority of glider pilots a square chute would have to be designed to be used by pilots without jumping experience. It is very unlikely that more than a few pilots will want to, or get around to, doing that.


The square reserves for pilots are designed to be used by people with no jumping experience. For all pilots care about the latest glider or flight computer it is amazing how content some are with 1600's parachute technology. Rounds are only better in price, and new not by much.


Is a reserve chute the same as an emergency chute?
 




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