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russia vs. japan in 1941 [WAS: 50% of NAZI oil..]



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 20th 03, 05:38 AM
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Default russia vs. japan in 1941 [WAS: 50% of NAZI oil..]

In article , "Bill
Silvey" wrote:

Then there was the fact that the Reds did nothing while Japan massacred
hundreds of thousands of Chinese in the '30s. Stalin only declared war on
Japan *after* Japan had lost, just to gain Kamchatka. 100% fact.


russia fought japan until the german invasion of russia. you don't have
to look in obscure sources to find out about it.

readers of rec.aviation.military are undoubtably familiar with the
accounts of the flying tigers in china. these books describe the
russian conflict with china in this period, both as mercenaries for
china and direct conflict on the soviet border.
  #3  
Old October 20th 03, 04:49 PM
Keith Willshaw
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wrote in message
...
In article , "Bill
Silvey" wrote:

Then there was the fact that the Reds did nothing while Japan massacred
hundreds of thousands of Chinese in the '30s. Stalin only declared war

on
Japan *after* Japan had lost, just to gain Kamchatka. 100% fact.


russia fought japan until the german invasion of russia. you don't have
to look in obscure sources to find out about it.



While the Soviets gave some aid to the chinese communists
and sent them some advisors it was minor and the only soviet
military involvement was in the form of the Nomonhan incident
in May1939 as a result of a Japanese incursion into Soviet
territory. The Japanese were given such a beating that they
hurriedly signed a non-aggression pact with the USSR which held
until August 1945. Indeed in 1945 the Japanese peace faction were
trying to contact the western allies via the USSR since it was a neutral.


Keith


  #4  
Old October 20th 03, 08:19 PM
The Black Monk
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wrote in message ...
In article , "Bill
Silvey" wrote:

Then there was the fact that the Reds did nothing while Japan massacred
hundreds of thousands of Chinese in the '30s. Stalin only declared war on
Japan *after* Japan had lost, just to gain Kamchatka. 100% fact.


russia fought japan until the german invasion of russia. you don't have
to look in obscure sources to find out about it.

readers of rec.aviation.military are undoubtably familiar with the
accounts of the flying tigers in china. these books describe the
russian conflict with china in this period, both as mercenaries for
china and direct conflict on the soviet border.



Indeed.

At Khalkyn Gol between May and September 1939 the Japanese were
crushed by Zhukov, sustaining over 80,000 casualties to the Russians'
11,130. Within a single week the Japanses lost 25,000 men. The
entire Japanese 6th army was completely destroyed.

The Battle of Khalkin Gol was Zhukov's illustration of Deep
Penetration tactics. The use of deception tactics, extremely fast
tanks and mechanized forces to outflank an opponent's defenses, and
the combination of aerial, airborne, and ground troops lead to the
complete destruction of the Japanese 6th Army and to Japan's loss of a
sphere of influence in the Mongolian and Far Eastern regions.

This battle also featured the first successful use of air-to-air
missiles. Five Polikarpov I-16 Type 10 fighters under the command of
Capt. Zvonarev claimed destruction two Mitsubishi A5M by RS-82
unguided rockets.

Historians describe a conflict within the Japanese military about
whether to attack the USSR or the USA. The complete defeat att he
hands of the Soviets made that decision: Pearl Harbor happened because
the Japanese chose to attack the weaker foe.

BM
  #5  
Old October 21st 03, 12:08 AM
John Mullen
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"The Black Monk" wrote in message
om...
wrote in message

...
In article , "Bill
Silvey" wrote:

Then there was the fact that the Reds did nothing while Japan

massacred
hundreds of thousands of Chinese in the '30s. Stalin only declared

war on
Japan *after* Japan had lost, just to gain Kamchatka. 100% fact.


russia fought japan until the german invasion of russia. you don't have
to look in obscure sources to find out about it.

readers of rec.aviation.military are undoubtably familiar with the
accounts of the flying tigers in china. these books describe the
russian conflict with china in this period, both as mercenaries for
china and direct conflict on the soviet border.



Indeed.

At Khalkyn Gol between May and September 1939 the Japanese were
crushed by Zhukov, sustaining over 80,000 casualties to the Russians'
11,130. Within a single week the Japanses lost 25,000 men. The
entire Japanese 6th army was completely destroyed.

The Battle of Khalkin Gol was Zhukov's illustration of Deep
Penetration tactics. The use of deception tactics, extremely fast
tanks and mechanized forces to outflank an opponent's defenses, and
the combination of aerial, airborne, and ground troops lead to the
complete destruction of the Japanese 6th Army and to Japan's loss of a
sphere of influence in the Mongolian and Far Eastern regions.

This battle also featured the first successful use of air-to-air
missiles. Five Polikarpov I-16 Type 10 fighters under the command of
Capt. Zvonarev claimed destruction two Mitsubishi A5M by RS-82
unguided rockets.

Historians describe a conflict within the Japanese military about
whether to attack the USSR or the USA. The complete defeat att he
hands of the Soviets made that decision: Pearl Harbor happened because
the Japanese chose to attack the weaker foe.


Great post!

And, by choosing the eastern, Pacific route of expansion rather than the
western, they ensured that the Navy rather than the Army would have
precedence in the Japanese junta of the time. These guys made an absolute
art-form of inter-service rivalry!

Interesting to speculate what if they had pursued the western route instead.
Of course if they and the Nazis had been proper allies instead of
mistrustful (as well as untrustworthy!) basket cases, they'd have been
having this discussion in late 1940 or so.

Think Germany and Japan, working together in a coordinated way, could have
beaten the Soviets without bringing the US or UK into the war?

Germany has Barbarossa but without having Fall Gelb first. Japan
consolidates in China then attacks Siberia.

And then perhaps done Western Europe afterwards. Assume a 1938/9
understanding greater than actually happened.

John


  #6  
Old October 21st 03, 01:48 AM
yp11
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On 20 Oct 2003 12:19:08 -0700, (The Black
Monk) wrote:

wrote in message ...
In article , "Bill
Silvey" wrote:

Then there was the fact that the Reds did nothing while Japan massacred
hundreds of thousands of Chinese in the '30s. Stalin only declared war on
Japan *after* Japan had lost, just to gain Kamchatka. 100% fact.


russia fought japan until the german invasion of russia. you don't have
to look in obscure sources to find out about it.

readers of rec.aviation.military are undoubtably familiar with the
accounts of the flying tigers in china. these books describe the
russian conflict with china in this period, both as mercenaries for
china and direct conflict on the soviet border.



Indeed.

At Khalkyn Gol between May and September 1939 the Japanese were
crushed by Zhukov, sustaining over 80,000 casualties to the Russians'
11,130. Within a single week the Japanses lost 25,000 men. The
entire Japanese 6th army was completely destroyed.

The Battle of Khalkin Gol was Zhukov's illustration of Deep
Penetration tactics. The use of deception tactics, extremely fast
tanks and mechanized forces to outflank an opponent's defenses, and
the combination of aerial, airborne, and ground troops lead to the
complete destruction of the Japanese 6th Army and to Japan's loss of a
sphere of influence in the Mongolian and Far Eastern regions.

This battle also featured the first successful use of air-to-air
missiles. Five Polikarpov I-16 Type 10 fighters under the command of
Capt. Zvonarev claimed destruction two Mitsubishi A5M by RS-82
unguided rockets.

Historians describe a conflict within the Japanese military about
whether to attack the USSR or the USA. The complete defeat att he
hands of the Soviets made that decision: Pearl Harbor happened because
the Japanese chose to attack the weaker foe.

BM


Although it is quite true that in 1938 and again in 1939 Japanese and
Soviet troops fought fairly severe battles on the Manchurian and
Mongolian borders, these hostilities were terminated as abruptly as
they began, without there being a declaration of war between the two
countries.

Then, in 1941 , when the Japanese Foreign Minister, Yosuke Matsuoka,
visited Moscow shortly before the German attack on the Soviet Union,
the two governments reached an agreement, called "a Neutrality Pact",
providing that either side would remain neutral if the other were
attacked by third parties. The Japanese kept their word and despite
joining Germany in the Second World War, they never attacked the
Soviet Union during the course of the war. Had the Japanese attacked
USSR from the East when Germany was attacking from the West, the
result of the war might have been very different.

On the other hand, Stalin broke the agreement with the Japanese as
soon as this was convenient to him, i.e. immediately after the
capitulation of Germany. In the final analysis Stalin didn't get much
out of it, namely he got the possession of southern Sakhalin and the
Kuriles. That's about all. The Americans prevented him from grabbing
part of Manchuria which was his initial intent. There was the
traditional sentimentality of the Americans about China which put them
squarely on the side of China (not knowing that it would soon become
Communist).

Yuri
  #7  
Old October 21st 03, 01:55 AM
phil hunt
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On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 00:08:25 +0100, John Mullen wrote:

Think Germany and Japan, working together in a coordinated way, could have
beaten the Soviets without bringing the US or UK into the war?


The UK entered the war because of the German invasion of Poland. If
instead of this, Germany, Poland and Japan had ganged up on Russia,
it's likely the UK would not have intervened. Ditto for the USA.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: , but first subtract 275 and reverse
the last two letters).


  #8  
Old October 21st 03, 02:08 AM
L'acrobat
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"The Black Monk" wrote in message
om...


Historians describe a conflict within the Japanese military about
whether to attack the USSR or the USA. The complete defeat att he
hands of the Soviets made that decision: Pearl Harbor happened because
the Japanese chose to attack the weaker foe.


Actually Pearl harbour happened because there was oil to the south and Japan
needed it nobody knew about the Siberian oil reserves at the time..

Without that oil the gains made in China would collapse, the attack south
was always meant to be a limited operation to secure resources, not to
defeat the US and C'wealth - once secured, it was intended that the focus
would move back to the main objective, China.



  #9  
Old October 21st 03, 04:02 AM
Vassil
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yp11 wrote in
Then, in 1941 , when the Japanese Foreign Minister, Yosuke Matsuoka,
visited Moscow shortly before the German attack on the Soviet Union,
the two governments reached an agreement, called "a Neutrality Pact",
providing that either side would remain neutral if the other were
attacked by third parties. The Japanese kept their word and despite
[...]
On the other hand, Stalin broke the agreement with the Japanese as
soon as this was convenient to him, i.e. immediately after the
capitulation of Germany. In the final analysis Stalin didn't get much
out of it, namely he got the possession of southern Sakhalin and the
Kuriles. That's about all. The Americans prevented him from grabbing
part of Manchuria which was his initial intent. There was the
traditional sentimentality of the Americans about China which put them
squarely on the side of China (not knowing that it would soon become
Communist).

Yuri


I thought Stalin promised to attack Japan 3 months after May 9th, which is
exactly what he did. In a way, he was trying to keep both his promises for
as long as he could.

Interestingly, though, if the Americans expected Stalin to attack within
three months of May 9th, why would they be in such a hurry to drop the two
nuclear bombs...

Vassil
  #10  
Old October 21st 03, 06:07 AM
Hugo S. Cunningham
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Default

On 20 Oct 2003 12:19:08 -0700, (The Black
Monk) wrote:

[...]

At Khalkyn Gol between May and September 1939 the Japanese were
crushed by Zhukov, sustaining over 80,000 casualties to the Russians'
11,130. Within a single week the Japanses lost 25,000 men. The
entire Japanese 6th army was completely destroyed.

The Battle of Khalkin Gol was Zhukov's illustration of Deep
Penetration tactics. The use of deception tactics, extremely fast
tanks and mechanized forces to outflank an opponent's defenses, and
the combination of aerial, airborne, and ground troops lead to the
complete destruction of the Japanese 6th Army and to Japan's loss of a
sphere of influence in the Mongolian and Far Eastern regions.

This battle also featured the first successful use of air-to-air
missiles. Five Polikarpov I-16 Type 10 fighters under the command of
Capt. Zvonarev claimed destruction two Mitsubishi A5M by RS-82
unguided rockets.

Historians describe a conflict within the Japanese military about
whether to attack the USSR or the USA. The complete defeat att he
hands of the Soviets made that decision:


Also, Hitler did not *ask* for Japan's assistance when he was planning
Barbarossa in the spring of 1941. Instead, he hid his plans from
visiting Japanese foreign minister Matsuoka in March 1941, and
encouraged Matsuoka to sign a non-aggression pact with Stalin in April
1941. In retrospect, this was a disastrous mistake by Hitler; at the
time, he probably expected to walk over Russia easily, and didn't want
to share the spoils.
By the time stiff Soviet resistance changed Hitler's mind and he
sought Japanese intervention in late summer 1941, it was too late:
Japan was preoccupied with US President F.D. Roosevelt's oil embargo,
announced on 26 July.

Pearl Harbor happened because
the Japanese chose to attack the weaker foe.


Their hand was forced by FDR's oil embargo (by diplomatic arrangement
with Great Britain and the Netherlands government-in-exile, then in
control of Indonesia).

Perhaps they would have done better to take a defensive attitude
toward the US fleet at Pearl Harbor while seizing the oil fields in
Indonesia. Pearl Harbor vaporized isolationist sentiment in the USA,
while a far-off colonial war might not have.

--Hugo S. Cunningham
 




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