$75,000 2-33

On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 8:48:15 AM UTC-5, ND wrote:

you want the answer why we still use them?

•because they are inexpensive to purchase, fly, and own
•there's a ****load of them here
•it's fun to hang out the rear window while a student flies
•we americans are a proud race, and they are american gliders (ok no but really, people here just like them) im intensely displeased at the lack of options when it comes to american made options.
•students beat on aircraft, and 2-33's are robust. (how many times has your club had to repair the nosewheel of a k-21?)

1. Not at $75k they aren't! (yeah, unique case, but you see any other 2-33 for sale?)
2. Not really - most of the 2-33s out there are really trash.
3. Yeah, that's what Soaring is all about! Try paragliding, you can hang everything out!
4. 'Murica. Nuff said. PS - Last time I was in France, Germany, Korea, Japan, the Philippines, or the UK, those guys were pretty proud too! And they seem OK with nice German Glass...
5. 2-33s are NOT more robust than K-21s. That's Fake News. They just don't require as much skill to land, and land slower (ie less energy). Funny how we have a problem in US breaking K-21 and G-103 nosewheels, yet nobody else seems to? Could that be because pilots trained in 2-33s are having problems transitioning to the extremely high performance Euro trainers? Naw, it couldn't be that simple...

It's interesting that our club (SLSA) seems to have evolved to almost the same financial and operational structure as the successful European clubs. We own all our assets (field, hangars, aircraft) outright, do our own maintenance, have work parties (although not as demanding as the Euros), and are working towards an all-glass fleet. Although we will keep our 1-26 (for the open canopy) and our K-13 (because: Wood!).

We do need a nicer clubhouse. Plotting underway...

Kirk

On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 4:45:06 PM UTC-4, Michael Opitz wrote:


OK, how many of you USA RAS posters have belonged to a European
club? There is a big difference between Europe and the USA. In
European clubs ALL members are expected to WORK (no
exceptions) On a flying day, one had to be at the airport by 9 AM
(in my club in Germany) to help unpack the hangar and assemble
whatever was kept in trailers. Once the gliders were ready, there
was a meeting to assign who got to fly what and when. Private
owners were not exempt. If you weren't flying, you were expected
to help wherever you could. After your flight as well. Nobody was
allowed to leave until the gliders had all been put away, and the
hangar doors were closed.

In the winter there was maintenance work to be done every week in
the evening. The club also took on subcontract work making
electrical cables for a local electronics firm. At the end of the winter
work season, all of the man hours were added up and divided by the
number of members in the club. If the number of hours one put in
was at the average or above, one got a "thank you". If one's hours
were below average, one received a bill to pay cash for the shortfall
in hours not worked.

This system worked to counter the problem that most USA clubs
have where only a few dedicated folks do all of the work, while the
rest can't seem to be bothered to help. It seems that most US
glider pilots want a country club atmosphere where they can reserve
a take-off time, show up at the last minute with everything already
set up for them, go fly, and then leave right after landing so that
someone else can put everything away. This may be fine for a
commercial operation, but USA pilots don't want to pay the
commercial operation's higher fees (due to providing all of these
services). The USA pilots want the lower club rates without having
to put the work in themselves.

Most European clubs also started many years ago, so what you see
now are the fruits of many years of dedicated teamwork. The
founders of my old club in Germany went door to door asking for
donations so they could build their first primary glider back in the
early 1950's. It's sort of like the old ant vs grasshopper fable. The
USA grasshoppers are jealous of what the European ants have built
up over many years of working together. The problem I have seen
over many years, is that the typical average USA club members just
don't have the dedication or discipline to follow the proven European
model. Until that mentality changes, the differences between
equipment will continue to be dramatic, and the few hard working
members will continue to realize they are being taken advantage of,
burn themselves out, and leave to do other things. The slackers are
then left asking themselves "What happened?"

RO

Hello Michael,

you are describing almost to the T the procedures in my club in Germany! One exception was that we allowed members to buy-out the 'Winterarbeit', if they wanted to or had only two left hands with thumbs on them! That generated enough funds to contract out certain jobs like re-roofing the hangar, etc..
As for the general membership age: in Germany, the clubs recruit out of the local high-schools - in the US out of the local retirement homes!

A funny story from a few years ago involving one of the few high-school aged kids we had: his mom dropped him off in the morning before his lesson and asked me when she could pick him back up. I told her that junior should call her after he helped washing, waxing and putting away the gliders, to which she replied with a mix of astonishment and horror: 'You mean my son has to work here? Why am I paying monthly dues?' In her mind, learning to fly gliders was like scheduling a lesson with the tennis- or golf-pro, although we briefed her on that when she signed junior up. Maybe we need to do a better job at that but in general, I do not think that the average US-teenager has the stamina to involve himself/herself in a 'German-style' club operation. This may be due to the chicken and egg problem: why would I like to hang out at the airport with a bunch of geezers if there are no peer-group around? Successful clubs like Harris Hill or Caesar Creek all have a youth group and a club-house - which as mentioned above - are the nucleus for growing a group. Randomly pick a web-site of a German club and look for the tab 'Jugendgruppe' (Youth group). You will see a good number of 14-21 year old fully integrated into or even running the entire operation!

Another issue is the geography of the US and life here in general. In Germany, a kid learns to fly and when leaving the area for college, he/she joins the local AKAFLIEG or soaring club - there are 900 clubs to pick from. In the US, if you happen to have a kid who solos during high-school, he/she is most likely lost to the sport since there is no soaring operation within easy reach of the college town. My son at NAU in Flagstaff, AZ is the best example. One can only hope that this person comes back to soaring at a later time in life.
Getting off the soap-box now - have I contributed enough to thread-drift? ;-)

Uli
'AS'

Maybe Rhinebeck would like a gliding club...

On 3/13/2018 11:19 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 12:17:02 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
You could buy a farm with sufficient space to grade and seed your own
runway.Â* The farm house would make a terrific club house and the barn
would be turned into a shop.Â* That would be a lot cheaper that $5-9
million and wouldn't have to be too far away from population centers.

Yep- In the area we fly, in the lower Hudson Valley of New York, the farm would only be about 2 million. And that assumes the neighbors would not put up a fuss.
UH

--
Dan, 5J

At 19:07 13 March 2018, AS wrote:

Hello Michael,

you are describing almost to the T the procedures in my club in
Germany!
On=
e exception was that we allowed members to buy-out the
'Winterarbeit', if
t=
hey wanted to or had only two left hands with thumbs on them!
That
generate=
d enough funds to contract out certain jobs like re-roofing the
hangar,
etc=
..
As for the general membership age: in Germany, the clubs recruit
out of
the=
local high-schools - in the US out of the local retirement homes!

A funny story from a few years ago involving one of the few high-
school
age=
d kids we had: his mom dropped him off in the morning before his
lesson
and=
asked me when she could pick him back up. I told her that junior
should
ca=
ll her after he helped washing, waxing and putting away the
gliders, to
whi=
ch she replied with a mix of astonishment and horror: 'You mean
my son has
=
to work here? Why am I paying monthly dues?' In her mind,
learning to fly
g=
liders was like scheduling a lesson with the tennis- or golf-pro,
although
=
we briefed her on that when she signed junior up. Maybe we need
to do a
bet=
ter job at that but in general, I do not think that the average
US-teenager=
has the stamina to involve himself/herself in a 'German-style' club
operat=
ion. This may be due to the chicken and egg problem: why would I
like to
ha=
ng out at the airport with a bunch of geezers if there are no peer-
group
ar=
ound? Successful clubs like Harris Hill or Caesar Creek all have a
youth
gr=
oup and a club-house - which as mentioned above - are the
nucleus for
growi=
ng a group. Randomly pick a web-site of a German club and look
for the tab
=
'Jugendgruppe' (Youth group). You will see a good number of 14-
21 year old
=
fully integrated into or even running the entire operation!=20

Another issue is the geography of the US and life here in general.
In
Germa=
ny, a kid learns to fly and when leaving the area for college, he/she
joins=
the local AKAFLIEG or soaring club - there are 900 clubs to pick
from. In
=
the US, if you happen to have a kid who solos during high-school,
he/she
is=
most likely lost to the sport since there is no soaring operation
within
e=
asy reach of the college town. My son at NAU in Flagstaff, AZ is the
best
e=
xample. One can only hope that this person comes back to soaring
at a
later=
time in life.
Getting off the soap-box now - have I contributed enough to
thread-drift?
;=
-)

Uli
'AS'

Hi Uli,

It was the same at my club in Germany for winter work hours. You
just got billed for the number of hours below the quota that you
didn't work. If you worked zero hours, you got billed the full
amount.

At Nutmeg, we have had junior scholarships going since the late
1960's. We normally always have one or two high school age kids
flying with us. Some have gone on to successful military or civilian
pilot careers. A few have stayed with soaring, but it is hard. "Life"
gets in the way... college, marriage, children, etc.. All you can hope
to do is to instill the love of soaring in them, so that eventually, they
will return to it somewhere, somehow. I was SSA Youth Education
Chairman for about 8 years back in the 1980's. it's a tough nut to
crack.

More thread-drift...

RO

On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 3:07:20 PM UTC-4, AS wrote:
Another issue is the geography of the US and life here in general. In Germany, a kid learns to fly and when leaving the area for college, he/she joins the local AKAFLIEG or soaring club - there are 900 clubs to pick from.

That is huge.

I do not think that the average US-teenager has the stamina to involve himself/herself in a 'German-style' club operation.

We have people in the USA that make gross generalizations about people of a certain age who're from certain countries. On average, those people are ignorant.

I share an airfield with young people who are active in soaring in the USA. Take my word for it. They are very high caliber individuals with great futures. And when they bring their friends to the airport to 'try soaring', I see that there are a lot of young people like that in the USA.

I do not think that the average US-teenager has the stamina to involve himself/herself in a 'German-style' club operation.

We have people in the USA that make gross generalizations about people of a certain age who're from certain countries. On average, those people are ignorant.

Son - call yourself lucky if the situation is different at your place! I have been observing the situation in the US for 30+ years and flown in three clubs, where the situation was/is as dismal as I described it. Ignorant? Hardly! Just stating the facts.
I was a member in a club here where one instructor actually proposed to change the by-laws to bar anyone under 21 from joining or at least to build a fenced in 'play-pen' - as he called it - for those below that age! Talk about ignorance ...

Uli
'AS'

On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 4:41:47 PM UTC-4, AS wrote:
I do not think that the average US-teenager has the stamina to involve himself/herself in a 'German-style' club operation.


son_of_flubber wrote:
We have people in the USA that make gross generalizations about people of a certain age who're from certain countries. On average, those people are ignorant.


AS wrote:
Son - call yourself lucky if the situation is different at your place!

I'm aware that young people fail to thrive at some soaring clubs in the USA..

I'm largely an observer on the sidelines, so I do not take credit for the success at Sugarbush. The adults that take the lead interacting with our young people are gifted and dedicated. Nothing is going to happen without those key adults.

Sugarbush is in a rural area with low population density. The young people that fly come from a variety of backgrounds, some very hardscrabble, and some educated and affluent. Yes, the young people are a self-selected group. We have a waiting list for our youth program and we can be very selective about who 'gets a slot'. But there is no shortage of young people who want to fly and who're willing to do the work.

Geezers writing off 'kids today'? Gimme a break.

On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 13:08:41 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

Maybe Rhinebeck would like a gliding club...

Maybe they would, but for certain glider pilots would not.

For many years my club (Cambridge Gliding Club) was based at Duxford, one
of the WW2 Fighter Command stations. Some time in the late 80s/early 90s
activity ramped up there with one of the the Imperial War Museum's
aviation collections becoming more active on site, a number of historic
aircraft restorers and flying groups moving in and air shows becoming
more frequent. This had a major impact on club operations in summer, so
CGC upped sticks and moved to its current site, which is far enough from
Duxford to be undisturbed by any of its air shows.

But, back to Old Rhinebeck: unless things have changed a lot since I
worked in NYC in 1976/77 (and visited Old Rhinebeck as well as regularly
flying models with the New York Skyscrapers on Galeville) the normal air
show schedule at Old Rhinebeck would be hugely disruptive to any gliding
operation there or in the immediate area.

....

Glide Britain now has a YouTube channel featuring short promotional
videos featuring various UK gliding sites. Some of you my find they give
a better idea of how we operate on this side of the pond. Yes, the CGC
video is on site now, together with Mendip (west England) and the York
Gliding Centre.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAs...dSl3yHjvzH5nag


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Uli, send your son 1.5 hours down to Prescott We have several Embry Riddle students and several 14-16 year olds learning gliders. And yes we only train in 2-33s as our fleet of blanik L13 is grounded. And yes we only winch launch. Our costs are very inexpensive and we fly year round weather permitting google "AC Goodwin memorial field" or Prescott Area soaring on fb

CH

Continuing the digression, successful clubs rely on members to do much or most of the work. There's always a question of whether to allow affluent and/or time-challenged members to buy their way out of their work obligation. When I was learning to fly at what is now Caesar Creek Soaring Club in the mid 60s, most of us worked one weekend day a month instructing, towing, or crewing. If you didn't, your fee for a 2,000' tow was a dollar higher (IIRC, $4.50 instead of $3.50 in a club glider. Yeah, times change.). Most members worked. A few didn't. Yes, there was a loss of camaraderie with those who just showed up to fly, but the philosophy was that we'd rather have them as club members than not.

Decades later, there was related discussion involving another club. I sensed some resentment about a few more affluent members not working. I've always wondered if that led to at least one active pilot I knew gradually dropping out of soaring. Probably not the deciding factor. But not feeling 100% welcome at your own soaring club doesn't seem like a formula for success.

It's a fine balance. We want club members to "pay their dues", literally and figuratively. We want them to show their commitment, not just because we need their support but because we resent investing in them if they're just going to wander away a year later.

But...if they're not as committed, would we rather send them to a commercial operation or see them drop out? It's a question; I don't have the answer.

Chip Bearden