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#61
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$75,000 2-33
On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 5:16:05 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I could mow lawns during the week and be able to fly a 2-22 multiple times on the weekend on what I made pushing that lawn mower. There isn't a single glass based club running today that can make that happen. Kick away at the schweizers all you want, the 2-33 then transition to 1-26 is still the only affordable way to get into soaring for the average teen or working adult.. When that dissapears, then say goodbye to any chance of growth within soaring except for the wealthy. Hmm, really? Our club charges about $60/mo dues (nothing if you are a full time student) and a 3k tow is $24. Gliders are free. And most of our fleet is glass (K-21, G-103, G-102, Speed Astir) along with a newer Blanik (L13AC that isn't grounded) that we probably will sell as soon as we get the new K-21 we have on order. Our (really nice) 1-34 and 1-26 hardly ever fly...we sold our last 2-33 a couple of years ago as it never flew... You grow by attracting people who have the time and/or resources to participate, and you have to make the equipment appealing. Othewise, death-spiral.. Funny, in some ways I agree with Tom that the 2-33 brings some interesting flying characteristics to the party (yes I have a bunch of time in them, in both seats), and have taken one up at times just to fool around (and laugh at how horrible they really are). Come on spring! (Blizzard conditions here yesterday...). Cheers, 66 |
#62
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$75,000 2-33
Le lundi 12 mars 2018 15:55:51 UTC+1, krasw a écritÂ*:
maanantai 12. maaliskuuta 2018 16.44.02 UTC+2 Tango Eight kirjoitti: On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 10:22:12 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote: So what's the story here? You are richest country in the world and insist on flying crappiest, oldest, cheapest training gliders known to earth. Please shine some light for us, training in poor countries with modern german gliders. Send me a link to your club website? I'd like to see what you have for equipment, membership, cost structure. best, Evan Ludeman / T8 ASK21, Duo, Junior, LS1-f, 2*LS8, D2b, V2c. Appr. 1500 USD per year and you can fly everything as much as you can, or hourly rate of up to 30 USD/hr plus 300 USD fixed per year. Same style and price level for us: 2x ASK21 2x DuoDiscus 2x LS4 2x LS8-18 |
#63
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$75,000 2-33
What club where and how to join? We need more clubs like this.
On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 7:55:51 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote: ASK21, Duo, Junior, LS1-f, 2*LS8, D2b, V2c. Appr. 1500 USD per year and you can fly everything as much as you can, or hourly rate of up to 30 USD/hr plus 300 USD fixed per year. |
#64
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$75,000 2-33
On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 8:26:25 AM UTC-7, Tango Whisky wrote:
Le lundi 12 mars 2018 15:55:51 UTC+1, krasw a écritÂ*: maanantai 12. maaliskuuta 2018 16.44.02 UTC+2 Tango Eight kirjoitti: On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 10:22:12 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote: So what's the story here? You are richest country in the world and insist on flying crappiest, oldest, cheapest training gliders known to earth. Please shine some light for us, training in poor countries with modern german gliders. Send me a link to your club website? I'd like to see what you have for equipment, membership, cost structure. best, Evan Ludeman / T8 ASK21, Duo, Junior, LS1-f, 2*LS8, D2b, V2c. Appr. 1500 USD per year and you can fly everything as much as you can, or hourly rate of up to 30 USD/hr plus 300 USD fixed per year. Same style and price level for us: 2x ASK21 2x DuoDiscus 2x LS4 2x LS8-18 What club where and how to join? |
#65
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$75,000 2-33
Le lundi 12 mars 2018 16:43:16 UTC+1, Jonathan St. Cloud a écritÂ*:
What club where and how to join? We need more clubs like this. On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 7:55:51 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote: ASK21, Duo, Junior, LS1-f, 2*LS8, D2b, V2c. Appr. 1500 USD per year and you can fly everything as much as you can, or hourly rate of up to 30 USD/hr plus 300 USD fixed per year. Bex (LSGB), Western Switzerland. Command of French language would help. http://www.lesmartinets.org |
#66
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$75,000 2-33
At 16:04 12 March 2018, Tango Whisky wrote:
Le lundi 12 mars 2018 16:43:16 UTC+1, Jonathan St. Cloud a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0= : What club where and how to join? We need more clubs like this.=20 =20 On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 7:55:51 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote: =20 =20 ASK21, Duo, Junior, LS1-f, 2*LS8, D2b, V2c. Appr. 1500 USD per year and= you can fly everything as much as you can, or hourly rate of up to 30 USD/= hr plus 300 USD fixed per year. Bex (LSGB), Western Switzerland. Command of French language would help. http://www.lesmartinets.org and how much of your fleet,equipment, clubhouse, was funded by the Swiss Lottery or other sources other than club members? |
#67
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$75,000 2-33
On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 10:22:12 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
So what's the story here? You are richest country in the world and insist on flying crappiest, oldest, cheapest training gliders known to earth. Please shine some light for us, training in poor countries with modern german gliders. The USA may be the "richest country" in aggregate, but the vast majority of young people are far poorer than in Northern Europe, due to low paying jobs (if any) and student debt. A bit off topic, but perhaps not, as this may have something to do with the decline of soaring here, regardless of the available training gliders. |
#68
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$75,000 2-33
Maybe 5%.
We are about 50 members, and the inflow of new members is not bad. Now, if we had trash bins from Schweizer on display, we'd been long gone. I've soloed and lateron instructed in Ka7's (which could be considered as the "European 2-33", just being 30 years ahead), but that was 30+ years ago. Who wants to dwelve on the middle ages?! Certainly a Ka7 or your local variety teaches you how to fly, but so does any modern glider. You can't have 2-33 in a club AND complain about dwindling membership. And yes - even in Europe we had these things, but must club managements managed to build up the switch over time. And tell those folks who claim that dinosaur gliders are the best way to learn the real thing... to go to hell. |
#69
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$75,000 2-33
So help us understand the economics of your operation. In round figures, you're sitting on about $1M (USD) worth of aircraft when I include our two towplanes. Maybe a little more or a little less depending on how you acquired the Duos and K-21s (used vs new) as well as the Maule, but close enough..
Insurance alone on this would run about $25K. Engine rebuild fund and refinish fund another $10K/year or something like that. Maintenance at least $5K assuming the ships are already in good condition. So,let's assume that operating costs for the fleet alone are in the neighborhood of $50K/year when we throw in a bunch of other stuff like supplies, licensing, hangar rent, etc.. That would be something like $1000/member based on 50 members with no money going into a capital fund (i.e. to acquire aircraft). Given the clubs total hours at around 1200 per the Website (including a fair amount of rides), that means that the average pilot logs a bit over 20 hours per year (though given a usual mix in a club, I'm sure there are a small few who account for a significant percentage). Even assuming you accumulated $1M worth of ships over 25 years, that would mean averaging another $40k or so going to the capital fund each year on average. Show me where I went wrong with the math. Erik Mann On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 3:04:47 PM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote: Maybe 5%. We are about 50 members, and the inflow of new members is not bad. Now, if we had trash bins from Schweizer on display, we'd been long gone. I've soloed and lateron instructed in Ka7's (which could be considered as the "European 2-33", just being 30 years ahead), but that was 30+ years ago. Who wants to dwelve on the middle ages?! Certainly a Ka7 or your local variety teaches you how to fly, but so does any modern glider. You can't have 2-33 in a club AND complain about dwindling membership. And yes - even in Europe we had these things, but must club managements managed to build up the switch over time. And tell those folks who claim that dinosaur gliders are the best way to learn the real thing... to go to hell. |
#70
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$75,000 2-33
At 19:04 12 March 2018, Tango Whisky wrote:
Maybe 5%. We are about 50 members, and the inflow of new members is not bad. Now, if we had trash bins from Schweizer on display, we'd been long gone. I've soloed and lateron instructed in Ka7's (which could be considered as t= he "European 2-33", just being 30 years ahead), but that was 30+ years ago.= Who wants to dwell on the middle ages?! Certainly a Ka7 or your local variety teaches you how to fly, but so does any modern glider. You can't have 2-33 in a club AND complain about dwindling membership. And = yes - even in Europe we had these things, but must club managements managed to build up the switch over time. And tell those folks who claim that dinosaur gliders are the best way to learn the real thing... to go to hell. OK, how many of you USA RAS posters have belonged to a European club? There is a big difference between Europe and the USA. In European clubs ALL members are expected to WORK (no exceptions) On a flying day, one had to be at the airport by 9 AM (in my club in Germany) to help unpack the hangar and assemble whatever was kept in trailers. Once the gliders were ready, there was a meeting to assign who got to fly what and when. Private owners were not exempt. If you weren't flying, you were expected to help wherever you could. After your flight as well. Nobody was allowed to leave until the gliders had all been put away, and the hangar doors were closed. In the winter there was maintenance work to be done every week in the evening. The club also took on subcontract work making electrical cables for a local electronics firm. At the end of the winter work season, all of the man hours were added up and divided by the number of members in the club. If the number of hours one put in was at the average or above, one got a "thank you". If one's hours were below average, one received a bill to pay cash for the shortfall in hours not worked. This system worked to counter the problem that most USA clubs have where only a few dedicated folks do all of the work, while the rest can't seem to be bothered to help. It seems that most US glider pilots want a country club atmosphere where they can reserve a take-off time, show up at the last minute with everything already set up for them, go fly, and then leave right after landing so that someone else can put everything away. This may be fine for a commercial operation, but USA pilots don't want to pay the commercial operation's higher fees (due to providing all of these services). The USA pilots want the lower club rates without having to put the work in themselves. Most European clubs also started many years ago, so what you see now are the fruits of many years of dedicated teamwork. The founders of my old club in Germany went door to door asking for donations so they could build their first primary glider back in the early 1950's. It's sort of like the old ant vs grasshopper fable. The USA grasshoppers are jealous of what the European ants have built up over many years of working together. The problem I have seen over many years, is that the typical average USA club members just don't have the dedication or discipline to follow the proven European model. Until that mentality changes, the differences between equipment will continue to be dramatic, and the few hard working members will continue to realize they are being taken advantage of, burn themselves out, and leave to do other things. The slackers are then left asking themselves "What happened?" RO |
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