History Channel Show reminder

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:54:28 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Reminder about "Deep Sea Detectives" Monday night (November 29) at 9:00 PM
EST on the History Channel. As previously announced, rec.aviation.piloting's
own Roger Long is to be seen pontificating briefly at the end of the show.

A good half of the show is about Admiral Byrd's flight over the South Pole
so it's worth watching even if you don't give a hoot about seeing my mug.
Some good footage of the unloading of the aircraft and the flight.

I just learned that one of my flying club buddy's fourth cousin was the
pilot of the aircraft so he'll be watching with double interest.

I saw a tape of the show. They cut my time down considerably from what the
head honcho originally told me it would be. My conclusions are presented but
none of my reasoning which makes me look even more pompous than in real
life. I've also got to get a wardrobe consultant before I do this again.
Wow, do I ever look rumpled!

I didn't think you looked rumpled or pompous. Nice job. I thought
you were going to postulate that the engine was run lean of peak and
exploded.
Rich Russell

Nice job, Roger . . .you looked great, and made sense to me. I liked the whole
program.
www.Rosspilot.com

Vince,

You are correct that Byrd exhibited a great deal of courage, with some
frequency. He jumped into the water and rescued a crewman during an
unloading accident in the Antarctic. However, he seemed to go weird
when it came to his flights. The books by Balchen and others outline
the frustration they had with his refusal to do any actual navigating
on their flights. I have a great deal of admiration for Byrd, but in
reading the historical record, can't figure out why he would behave as
he did during his expeditions.

As to the North Pole flight, the pilot, Floyd Bennett admitted on his
death bed that they had simply flown out of sight of Spitsbergen and
made circles for 15 hours because of an oil leak on one engine.
Byrd's navigational markings on his charts were made on the steamship
on the voyage home. They did not match the weather data that was
available for the flight (winds), and would have required a very
strong tailwind on both legs of the flight to and from the North Pole.

The History Channel program implied strongly that Byrd was the pilot
on his flights. He never was. He never did any flying on his
expeditions. It also implied that he was flying when the Fokker
Trimotor he purchased for the Atlantic flight crashed. He was not, it
was not his fault at all. Tony Fokker had designed the airplane badly
nose heavy. Bennett, Byrd and Fokker all jammed into the cockpit
(there was no way to get from the cockpit into the cabin...odd design,
but that was Fokker's decision and common at the time in his
airplanes). Once in the air they determined that the c.g. was way too
far forward and that they were going to be in trouble on landing. As
the History Channel showed, the airplane flipped on landing. Bennett
was seriously injured and never really recovered (Byrd wanted him to
be the pilot on the Atlantic flight but he was still recovering and
died prior to the South Pole flight - Byrd named the Ford used for the
South Pole flight the Floyd Bennett, as a memorial to Bennett, the
airplane is in The Henry Ford Museum now). The Fokker was rapidly
rebuilt and was ready to go before Lindbergh even got to Long Island.
For reasons no one knows, Byrd refused to take off. His continual
delays angered Fokker so much that he withdrew from the project and
nearly took his airplane with him. In fact, Byrd had scheduled a
"christening" party for May 21 for the Fokker, after it had been on
the departure airport for nearly two weeks. Lindbergh launched on the
20th and Byrd's "christening" party turned into a celebration for
Lindbergh as word of his success arrived in the middle of the
"christening". Byrd delayed nearly two more weeks before he finally
allowed the crew to fuel the airplane and take off. Balchen and
Acosta both wrote that Byrod provided no navigational assistance to
them during the flight across the Atlantic. They reached the French
coast and Balchen figured out where they were because he had learned
to fly in Norway and had flown in France some years earlier. He set
course directly for Paris as the radio receiver they carried gave them
a forecast that Paris was going to close down in fog. Byrd overruled
Balchen at that point and demanded that they fly north along the coast
until reaching the Seine and then follow it to Paris. That delayed
them more than two hours, in which time the weather in Paris went down
the tubes. They scud ran down the Seine until near Paris when the fog
got too bad, so they climbed up and flew west to the coast. Balchen
and Acosta talked Byrd into letting them dead reckon back to Paris,
which they did. They got to the area and circled, getting told by
radio that they were overhead and that the field was fogged in.
Balchen, Acosta and Byrd decided that descending was too dangerous
with the Effiel (sp?) Tower in the vicintiy and dead reckoned back to
the coast where, nearly out of gas, Balchen successfully ditched the
airplane just off the beach where the D-Day attack would occur in
1944.

For the South Pole trip there were four airplanes and four pilots
taken to Little America. Because Balchen had the most cold weather
experience (he was from Norway, had flown with Roald Amundsen on two
of his expeditions and then was chief test pilot for Fokker and had
used Universals and Super Universals to help a Canadian airline set up
an operation in the Hudson's Bay area) he was selected to fly the Ford
4AT on the South Pole trip. (The communication on that airplane, as
with the tranAtlantic Fokker, between Byrd in the cabin and the pilots
was via notes clipped to a clothesline and reeled back and forth.)
There are films of Byrd using a sextant on the South Pole flight, but
he gave no positions to the pilots on the flight. They dead reckoned
their way south, initially following red flags set out by the dog sled
crews that carried fuel to the cache at the base of a glacier that
marked the mountain range that required a climb to the polar plateau.
That climb was remarked upon by the History Channel and is still
considered one of the greatest feat of airmanship ever, as Balchen
used ridge soaring techniques to get the Ford, with its light wing
loading, to climb high enough to clear the pass onto the polar
plateau. (The crew had dumped several hundred pounds of food carried
for survival in case they went down along with any "nonessential
equipment" to lighten the airplane during that climb.) According to
the books written by the occupants of the airplane, Balchen sent a
note back saying that his dead reckoning showed they'd be in the area
of the South Pole in five minutes. Byrd then sent a note forward that
said his navigation agreed with that. They circled the Pole and
dropped a flag that was tied to a stone from Floyd Bennett's grave (in
Canada, where he'd died of pneumonia when he'd left the hospital to go
on the flight to rescue the German fliers in the Bremmen that had
landed in eastern Canada).

On the trip north, Byrd pulled out brandy he'd not tossed out with the
food and, according to the crew members, got drunk and was unable to
help with the refueling in sub-zero temperatures.

In looking at the record, Bryd deserves tremendous credit for
organizing and planning his expeditions as well as selecting the most
talented men for each job. He had the best mechanics, the best dog
handlers, etc. When things actually happened, he would behave
strangely and he rarely gave credit to the men who actually did the
work or the flying. He did know how to play the publicity machine.
Even today, after nearly 80 years, we know of Byrd's "flights" but who
knows who actually did the flying? Without going and looking it up, I
can't recall the name of the fourth crew member on the Atlantic flight
nor of the second pilot or of the radio operator/photographer on the
South Pole flight.

All the best,
Rick

vincent p. norris wrote in message . ..
Interesting thing about Byrd's "flights": although he was trained as
a naval aviator, he never did any of the flying on any of his
expeditionary flights, choosing to "navigate". Unfortunately, he
never did any of that either, leaving finding the destination to the
pilot.

Rick, I think you've gone overboard there. Byrd obviously navigated
pretty damn well for about 16 hours, IIRC, in a most difficult part of
the globe where a magnetic compass is almost worthless. If he had
not, he would never have got the airplane close enough to Spitzbergen
for the pilot to be able to see the airport, even in CAVU conditions.

I, too, was trained as a Naval Aviator, and when I went back to
college, the University of Illinois decided I had "earned" 30
college-level credits in celestial navigation. That's a normal
full-year's worth of credits--the equivalent of a "major." But I
could not possibly navigate an airplane for 16 hours in the polar
regions and find my destination airport.

Byrd had invented a new kind of compass, a "Sun Compass," to make the
navigation possible.

It's pretty well accepted that he faked his North Pole flight...

He didn't fake "the flight"; he and Floyd Bennett flew for about 16
hours. It does seem clear, now, that he didn't reach the pole;
whether he "faked" that part, or simply screwed up, I don't think
either you or I can know for certain.

On his flight over the Atlantic, he screwed around so long in
preparation that Lindbergh beat him.

His airplane nosed over on landing, on a test flight, damaging the a/c
(and seriously injuring Floyd Bennett), which delayed his flight.

Byrd got hammered on brandy he'd snuck aboard, and passed out.
He revived by the time they got back to Little America. He provided no navigational
assistance to the crew on the flight. The books by Balchen and others
on the crew are fascinating.

I haven't read those books, but I've read others that were very
critical of Byrd; however, I don't recall any of them mentioning his
getting "hammered." I'm sure you know that not everything we read is
true. He certainly was a prickly character, probably a "spoiled rich
brat," and perhaps a grand-stander, but he demonstrated his personal
courage on several occasions.

vince norris

You are correct that Byrd exhibited a great deal of courage, with some
frequency. ...... However, he seemed to go weird
when it came to his flights. The books by Balchen and others outline
the frustration they had with his refusal to do any actual navigating
on their flights.

Thanks for taking the time to write a lengthy response, Rick. I
haven't read Balchen's book. I guess I should. I did read two books
quite critical of Byrd, Richard Montague's _Oceans, Poles, and
Airmen_; and Dean Smith's _By the Seat of my Pants_, ten or more years
ago. I don't recall anything about his "going weird," though, or
refusing to navigate.

I have a great deal of admiration for Byrd, but in
reading the historical record, can't figure out why he would behave as
he did during his expeditions.

Perhaps you should entertain the hypothesis that he did NOT behave
that way; that the charges were fictitious, motivated by jealousy,
personal dislike, or some such reason. As you mentioned, he wasn't
generous about sharing the credit for his achievements. There was
also a lot of resentment, in Europe, that Byrd had beaten the Airship
Norge, a European venture, to the Pole.

As to the North Pole flight, the pilot, Floyd Bennett admitted on his
death bed that they had simply flown out of sight of Spitsbergen and
made circles for 15 hours because of an oil leak on one engine.

I find that extremely hard to believe, Rick. It contradicts
everything else we (or I) know about Byrd. I do recall that Bennett
crawled out of the cabin in mid-flight to deal with that oil leak,
but I never heard of that death-bed confession.

I have no trouble believing Byrd didn't reach the pole. His Sun
Compass was excellent at providing directional information, but it
provided no ground-speed info at all.

As you mentioned, Bennett died of pneumonia in Jeffrey Hale Hospital
in Quebec, Canada, the result of attempting, although he was already
ill, a flight to rescue the crew of the Bremen, who had made a forced
landing on Greenly Island in the Gulf of st. Lawrence. Given the
circumstances of his death, and his heroic reputation, he was no doubt
being hovered over by a staff of doctors and nurses, trying to keep
him alive. Did they report such a confession at that time?

Byrd's navigational markings on his charts were made on the steamship
on the voyage home.

How can we be certain of that?

They did not match the weather data that was available for the flight (winds),....

I would imagine any data available for such a desolate, uninhabited
part of the globe, in those days, was hardly reliable. I'm sure you
know that even today, forecast winds are usually the most undependable
part of any weather briefing.

The History Channel program implied strongly that Byrd was the pilot
on his flights. He never was. He never did any flying on his
expeditions.

Except for doing the flying while Bennett was out there dealing with
the oil leak, that is probably true. But I don't think that is a
criticism. Navigating that flight was a far greater challenge than
Bennett's stick-and-rudder chores, although I'm not slighting what it
takes to do them for 16 hours.

As I recall, in aviations early days, it was customary for the
"captain" of an airplane not to do the flying, just as the captain of
a naval vessel does not hold the wheel. (I don't think the Commander
of NASA's space shots is the pilot, either.)

It also implied that he was flying when the Fokker
Trimotor he purchased for the Atlantic flight crashed.

I didn't get that impression. IIRC, Anthony Fokker was flying it,
wasn't he? (In any case, programs on the History Channel are loaded
with mistakes, so such an error wouldn't be unusual. In fact, an
error-free program would be much more unusual.

For reasons no one knows, Byrd refused to take off. His continual
delays angered Fokker so much that he withdrew from the project and
nearly took his airplane with him.

I don't know, either, but I do seem to recall that Lindbergh had to
wait around for the wx to improve. "Refusing to take off" is one of
the smartest things a pilot can do. As you agreed, earlier, we can
hardly attribute his delay to cowardice.

Balchen and Acosta both wrote that Byrd provided no navigational assistance to
them during the flight across the Atlantic.

Is that in Balchen's _Come North With Me_? I see we have that here in
the Penn State library. I can find nothing in the catalog by Acosta,
though.

For the South Pole trip there were four airplanes and four pilots
taken to Little America....

When I was in the Marines, I had the pleasure of knowing two
extraordinary men who had been selected to go to the South Pole with
Byrd on Operation High Jump in 1946. One was M.Sgt. Mincey, a radio
oerator in VMR 252; and another M.Sgt whose name escapes me in my
senility; he was a navigator in VMR-153; both squadrons were in MAG
21, as was I. (In the Marines, at least in those days, navigators
were enlisted men.) Regrettably, I have lost track of both in the
ensuing half-century; I suspect both are dead by now. Both were older
than I and would be pushing 90 by now.

As I recall the navigator had developed some kind of grid-system for
navigating in the polar regions, and was seriously injured in a crash.
A mountain in Antarctica was named for him. Did you encounter
anything about either of those men in any of your reading about Byrd?

vince norris

Nope, green shirt at the very end.

--

Roger Long



"bryan chaisone" wrote in message
m...
"Roger Long" wrote in message
.. .
Reminder about "Deep Sea Detectives" Monday night (November 29) at 9:00
PM
EST on the History Channel. As previously announced,
rec.aviation.piloting's
own Roger Long is to be seen pontificating briefly at the end of the
show.

A good half of the show is about Admiral Byrd's flight over the South
Pole
so it's worth watching even if you don't give a hoot about seeing my mug.
Some good footage of the unloading of the aircraft and the flight.

I just learned that one of my flying club buddy's fourth cousin was the
pilot of the aircraft so he'll be watching with double interest.

I saw a tape of the show. They cut my time down considerably from what
the
head honcho originally told me it would be. My conclusions are presented
but
none of my reasoning which makes me look even more pompous than in real
life. I've also got to get a wardrobe consultant before I do this again.
Wow, do I ever look rumpled!


Only got a glimps, wedding anniversary and wife wants it NOW! Are
you the one in blue shirt and red tie?

Bryan

The show was pretty well in the can by the time the producer had the
radical idea of talking to someone who knows something about ship loading
and stability.

It's too bad I came in so late. There is fairly complete documentation on
the vessel and I could have produced nearly court testimony quality
conclusions based on computer modeling of the hull and detailed flooding and
stability analysis.

Left on the cutting room floor was my discussion of things like:

* The roll period of this very poorly damped hull at the minimum stability
that would let it survive a few trips would have been a very close match to
a long ground swell. The boat capsized right at the point where it turned
broadside to the swell. It was flat calm so there would have been no
concern or caution about weather. The lack of aerodynamic damping from wind
and counter inputs from surface chop would have made it even easier for
resonant rolling to quickly escalate to angles beyond the range of positive
stability.

* When a ship is loaded to a specific maximum cargo weight on the basis of
the Load Line mark, the less dense the cargo, the worse the stability
because its center of gravity within a fixed volume will be higher.

* The loud banging reported coming from the engine room all night just
before the accident is consistent with opening pipes and breaching a
bulkhead to set up for intentional flooding. However, everyone's
expectation clearly was that the ship would be quickly raised and be on it's
way. The crew hung around for three weeks and only left after the salvage
efforts were abandoned. It seems pretty unlikely that they would have
stayed around for open seacocks and holes in bulkheads to be discovered.
They had an unusual amount of money for tramp seaman and could have
disappeared easily. The fact that they demonstrated every intention of
getting back on the vessel also shoots the U boat fear theory in the foot.

* The previous near capsizing was so similar in vessel behavior that it
could have shown the crew that they could accept the full lumber load, give
the helm a quick hard over at full speed and lay the ship down in waters
where the superstructure would remain above the surface. They then would
only have had to open some deck hatches to let it go down. The ship was
probably being held up by the buoyancy of its lumber load and they might
have been casting it off to complete the capsize.

* Discussion about the quality of stability information provided to crews
and probable sophistication of the master's knowledge typical of the period.

You could make a whole show out of the stuff they taped me saying but, if
you tuned in an hour earlier for "UFO Report - Cattle Mutilations" you'll
understand that this is history to the same extent that TV news is
information and a rational basis for voting decisions.

--

Roger Long



"vincent p. norris" wrote in message
...
A good half of the show is about Admiral Byrd's flight over the South
Pole

Seemed a lot less than that to me.

I saw a tape of the show. They cut my time down considerably from what the
head honcho originally told me it would be. My conclusions are presented
but
none of my reasoning which makes me look even more pompous than in real
life.

No, I thought you came off very well. You made sense.

But I thought the show, as a whole, was not very good. There was
enough stuff for a half-hour show but they had to stretch it to an
hour (less commercials, of course), by dragging out that U-Boat
nonsense far longer than it was worth.

vince norris

Vince,

I did read two books
quite critical of Byrd, Richard Montague's _Oceans, Poles, and
Airmen_; and Dean Smith's _By the Seat of my Pants_, ten or more years
ago. I don't recall anything about his "going weird," though, or
refusing to navigate.

You've read two very good books, I still haven't gotten a copy of
Smith's book, but will do so. I'm also looking for Gould's as I've
seen some excerpts from his writings regarding strange behavior by
Byrd on the expeditions themselves and examples of his making his map
entries in pencil and then, on the ground, when challenged by other
observers aboard the airplane, going into another room and changing
the notations.

Perhaps you should entertain the hypothesis that he did NOT behave
that way; that the charges were fictitious, motivated by jealousy,
personal dislike, or some such reason. As you mentioned, he wasn't
generous about sharing the credit for his achievements. There was
also a lot of resentment, in Europe, that Byrd had beaten the Airship
Norge, a European venture, to the Pole.

Good points. It is known for certain that the Norge made it over the
north pole and carried on to Alaska. Interestingly, Amundsen never
claimed to have made it over the north pole prior to Byrd and always
gave Byrd great credit. Amundsen could have stopped Byrd completely
when Bennett and Byrd broke the skis on the Josephine Ford, but sent
Balchen over to Byrd and Balchen showed them how to rebuild the skis
by reinforcing them with lifeboat oars sliced lengthwise and then how
to use a blowtorch rather than wax to prepare the surface. He also
suggested they takeoff at night when the snow would not be sticky. A
year ago The Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, Mi., redid its aviation
display (it's an amazing collection) and set up the Josephine Ford in
a diorama with life size figures of Byrd, Bennett and Balchen to
recreate the moment when Balchen approached the others about repairs
to the skis.

As to the North Pole flight, the pilot, Floyd Bennett admitted on his
death bed that they had simply flown out of sight of Spitsbergen and
made circles for 15 hours because of an oil leak on one engine.

I find that extremely hard to believe, Rick. It contradicts
everything else we (or I) know about Byrd. I do recall that Bennett
crawled out of the cabin in mid-flight to deal with that oil leak,
but I never heard of that death-bed confession.

Just checked a couple of sources. I was mistaken. The flying around
for 15 hours comment was made by a rival, not Bennett. Bennett, in
the hospital in Canada, simply repeated to Balchen that he and Byrd
had not gotten to the north pole. Bennett and Balchen flew the
Josephine Ford all around the U.S. following the artic flight.
Balchen was a test pilot for Fokker and kept extensive performance
data on the Josephine Ford during the flights because he and Bennett
intended to use it for a trans-Atlantic flight. It cruised on wheels
(without skis mounted) at 70 knots TAS. (A nearly identical Fokker
3m, the Southern Cross, cruised at roughly the same speed, within 2
knots.) Balchen and Bennett confirmed the performance data and
Bennett supposedly told Balchen that on skis the airplane cruised at
68 knots TAS. Balchen then asked Bennett how he and Byrd had made the
round trip in the time they were gone. Bennett said that they hadn't
and that it didn't matter anymore, apparently because the celebrations
and awards had taken place.

I have no trouble believing Byrd didn't reach the pole. His Sun
Compass was excellent at providing directional information, but it
provided no ground-speed info at all.

As you mentioned, Bennett died of pneumonia in Jeffrey Hale Hospital
in Quebec, Canada, the result of attempting, although he was already
ill, a flight to rescue the crew of the Bremen, who had made a forced
landing on Greenly Island in the Gulf of st. Lawrence. Given the
circumstances of his death, and his heroic reputation, he was no doubt
being hovered over by a staff of doctors and nurses, trying to keep
him alive. Did they report such a confession at that time?

The confession was made to Balchen, Bennett's best friend. The two of
them had flown the Ford that was later named the Floyd Bennett to the
Gulf to participate in the rescue (and to get publicity for raising
funds for Byrd's Antarctic expedition.)

Byrd's navigational markings on his charts were made on the steamship
on the voyage home.

How can we be certain of that?

Crew member's reports, I believe it's in _Oceans, Poles and Airmen_.

They did not match the weather data that was available for the flight (winds),....

I would imagine any data available for such a desolate, uninhabited
part of the globe, in those days, was hardly reliable. I'm sure you
know that even today, forecast winds are usually the most undependable
part of any weather briefing.

Agree, however, there were weather reporting stations in the Arctic
and there is a historical record of the location of the highs and
lows, thus the general wind direction is known (although I agree it's
not perfectly accurate). There is a detailed report on the weather
that was made after the fact when the National Geographic Society
accepted Byrd's rather sparse data without challenge, which upset a
number of folks who felt that Amundsen was first. At least one
meteorologist published data on the subject and I believe one is
reported in Montague's book, in an appendix.

The History Channel program implied strongly that Byrd was the pilot
on his flights. He never was. He never did any flying on his
expeditions.

Except for doing the flying while Bennett was out there dealing with
the oil leak, that is probably true. But I don't think that is a
criticism. Navigating that flight was a far greater challenge than
Bennett's stick-and-rudder chores, although I'm not slighting what it
takes to do them for 16 hours.

Good points. In doing an article that included the Josephine Ford a
while back, the museum let me "cross the ropes" and get in the
airplane. I hadn't realized until then that it was open cockpit.
Bennett and Byrd were truly men of iron.

As I recall, in aviations early days, it was customary for the
"captain" of an airplane not to do the flying, just as the captain of
a naval vessel does not hold the wheel. (I don't think the Commander
of NASA's space shots is the pilot, either.)

To my knowledge, only on Pan Am flying boats did the "Master of Flying
Boats" reach such an exhalted position that he no longer deigned to
touch the controls. Gotta check on the shuttle, I'll email a friend
who had four missions. No doubt that Byrd was the commander of the
flights.

It also implied that he was flying when the Fokker
Trimotor he purchased for the Atlantic flight crashed.

I didn't get that impression. IIRC, Anthony Fokker was flying it,
wasn't he? (In any case, programs on the History Channel are loaded
with mistakes, so such an error wouldn't be unusual. In fact, an
error-free program would be much more unusual.

You're right, Tony Fokker was flying. I felt that the program at
least implied that Byrd was flying and it didn't make it clear that
the accident was in no means the fault of the pilot.

For reasons no one knows, Byrd refused to take off. His continual
delays angered Fokker so much that he withdrew from the project and
nearly took his airplane with him.

I don't know, either, but I do seem to recall that Lindbergh had to
wait around for the wx to improve. "Refusing to take off" is one of
the smartest things a pilot can do. As you agreed, earlier, we can
hardly attribute his delay to cowardice.

Byrd was the first on the field (the Bellanca was going through all
sorts of problems due to the crazy owner of the airplane) and both
Fokker and Balchen wrote of frustration with Byrd not going when the
weather was reported to be good and then, three weeks after Lindbergh
went, abruptly decided to go when the weather forecast was awful,
making the public comment that "modern airliners must be able to fly
in all kinds of weather". Balchen was almost frantic after getting
the same forecast for improving weather that Lindbergh got, because he
was trying to get the crew together and launch but Byrd wouldn't go
due to the "christening" ceremony that was to take place the next
afternoon.

Balchen and Acosta both wrote that Byrd provided no navigational assistance to
them during the flight across the Atlantic.

Is that in Balchen's _Come North With Me_? I see we have that here in
the Penn State library. I can find nothing in the catalog by Acosta,
though.

Balchen wrote in either _Come North With Me_ or another book that he
and Acosta had gotten the airplane above the clouds and were enjoying
looking at the stars and wondering where they were when they got a
note from Byrd saying that the overcast precluded star shots.

For the South Pole trip there were four airplanes and four pilots
taken to Little America....

When I was in the Marines, I had the pleasure of knowing two
extraordinary men who had been selected to go to the South Pole with
Byrd on Operation High Jump in 1946. One was M.Sgt. Mincey, a radio
oerator in VMR 252; and another M.Sgt whose name escapes me in my
senility; he was a navigator in VMR-153; both squadrons were in MAG
21, as was I. (In the Marines, at least in those days, navigators
were enlisted men.) Regrettably, I have lost track of both in the
ensuing half-century; I suspect both are dead by now. Both were older
than I and would be pushing 90 by now.

As I recall the navigator had developed some kind of grid-system for
navigating in the polar regions, and was seriously injured in a crash.
A mountain in Antarctica was named for him. Did you encounter
anything about either of those men in any of your reading about Byrd?

There is a web site on Byrd that gives the names of those who served
with him in Antarctica (I found it on google by typing in: Byrd
Balchen "South Pole" Don't recall if those names were there. You are
correct that they use grid navigation. A friend of mine who flew
helos in Antarctica as a civilian contractor for a couple of summers
(I never figured out why an ex-Army helo pilot would go where it was
so cold) once explained grid navigation to me, but her eyes were so
captivating I'm afraid that I didn't pay as much attention to what she
was saying as I should have.

vince norris

Vince,

To follow up on a message I sent you about an hour ago. I sent an
email to a friend (Jay Apt) who did four shuttle missions. In his
reply he said that the commander of the shuttle sits in the left front
seat and physcially flies the spacecraft on descent and landing. The
"pilot" sits in the right seat and is effectively the copilot.

(Sounds like an "interesting" way of naming the positions to me.)

All the best,
Rick

Guess I missed you. Hope they replay.

Bryan

"Roger Long" wrote in message .. .
Nope, green shirt at the very end.

--

Roger Long



"bryan chaisone" wrote in message
m...
"Roger Long" wrote in message
.. .
Reminder about "Deep Sea Detectives" Monday night (November 29) at 9:00
PM
EST on the History Channel. As previously announced,
rec.aviation.piloting's
own Roger Long is to be seen pontificating briefly at the end of the
show.

A good half of the show is about Admiral Byrd's flight over the South
Pole
so it's worth watching even if you don't give a hoot about seeing my mug.
Some good footage of the unloading of the aircraft and the flight.

I just learned that one of my flying club buddy's fourth cousin was the
pilot of the aircraft so he'll be watching with double interest.

I saw a tape of the show. They cut my time down considerably from what
the
head honcho originally told me it would be. My conclusions are presented
but
none of my reasoning which makes me look even more pompous than in real
life. I've also got to get a wardrobe consultant before I do this again.
Wow, do I ever look rumpled!


Only got a glimps, wedding anniversary and wife wants it NOW! Are
you the one in blue shirt and red tie?

Bryan

Rick, a retired USAF friend passes his copies of _Air Force_ magazine
on to me when he finishes them; the one he gave me yesterday, the
November 2004 issue, has an article on Byrd and Balchen. I thought it
might present some new evidence, but I found nothing startling in it.
It did say that Byrd and Balchen had become "estranged" and that
Bennett had told Balchen that he and Byrd had not reached the North
Pole.

Just checked a couple of sources....... The flying around for 15 hours comment was made by a rival, not Bennett.

Since Byrd and Bennett were out of sight of any human being, and there
was no radar in those days, no rival can know what they did. Sounds
like "sour grapes."

Seems to me that the possibility that Byrd never intended to fly to
the Pole, that the whole expedition was a hoax, is just too wild to
have any credibility.

That leaves us with three possibilities:

1. Byrd intended to fly to the pole, but after the oil leak
developed, he aborted the attempt and circled for 15 hours.

2. Byrd intended to fly to the pole, even after the the oil leak, but
made some kind of error in dead reckoning, and failed to reach the
Pole although he thought he had. Perhaps he recognized this at some
point and "adjusted" the data.

3. Byrd reached the Pole.

It seems to me that 2 is much more likely than 1; and 3, although
questionable, cannot be ruled out entirely.

It is virtually impossible to imagine that Byrd, an Annapolis-trained
navigator, would have neglected to calculate, while planning the
flight, an ETA at the Pole and an ETA back at Spitzbergen.

Now, if he *knowingly* turned back before reaching the pole, wouldn't
he have made certain he did not arrive back at Spitzbergen too early?
It would have been pretty dumb not to do that, wouldn't it?

He could have instructed Bennett to throttle back, or to circle.
Consider that Bennett had no navigational gear in the cockpit. How in
the world would he, Bennett, know they had not reached the Pole,
unless Byrd had told him, either (a), explicitly, or (b) by tipping
him off by requesting he circle or otherwise delay their arrival back
at Spitzbergen? There is no way, just by looking out the windshield,
that Bennett could know whether he is is, or is not, over the Pole.

......... there were weather reporting stations in the Arctic

Sorry, Rick, I still remain stubbornly skeptical about wind reports.
It's about 700 miles from Spitzbergen to the Pole, and it's all water
or ice. Rarely if ever would the winds be the same over such a large
area. I doubt very much there was a single weather reporting station
anywhere along that route, or even near it, much less one capable of
measuring winds at altitude.

...and there is a historical record of the location of the highs and
lows,....

How could the locations of highs and lows over the polar region be
known with any accuracy back in 1926, when no one was there, and
meteorology was primitive compared to today?

Perhaps I'm ignorant of the state of meteorology in those days, but
I'm willing to be enlightened.

To my knowledge, only on Pan Am flying boats did the "Master of Flying
Boats" reach such an exalted position that he no longer deigned to
touch the controls.

I think it was common in military aviation. I recall reading that in
WW I observation aircraft, the observer was typically an officer in
command of the aircraft, and the pilot was an enlisted man who did
what the observer told him. I believe that was also the practice in
the U.S. Air Service.

... both Fokker and Balchen wrote of frustration with Byrd not going when the
weather was reported to be good and then, three weeks after Lindbergh
went, abruptly decided to go when the weather forecast was awful,
making the public comment that "modern airliners must be able to fly
in all kinds of weather".

Now that raises an interesting question in my mind! Do you suppose
Byrd was deliberately waiting for BAD weather, to prove that "modern
airliners" can fly in all kinds of weather?

There is a web site on Byrd that gives the names of those who served
with him in Antarctica (I found it on google by typing in: Byrd
Balchen "South Pole"

After several ties, I've been unable to get that site. Could you
possibly send the URL?

A friend of mine....... once explained grid navigation to me, but her eyes were so
captivating I'm afraid that I didn't pay as much attention to what she
was saying as I should have.

I don't blame you one damn bit. Could you get her to explain it to me
sometime?

vince norris