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Etiquette in a Thermal
Okay, let's hear your views on what proper etiquette might be in a thermal. We all know the first man in decides the direction of the turn and we should all thermal at the same speed. The Glider Pilot Handbook seems somewhat unconcerned with the rules and etiquette and the internet information seems to be the domain of the hang gliders and para-gliders as to this subject. What say you my friends? (I think we have beaten the rudder waggle thing to death)
Walt |
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Forty Five views and not one comment on etiquette in a thermal. Apparently this subject does not evoke the emotions of the waggle of ones tail.
Walt |
#3
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Etiquette in a Thermal
First glider sets the tone. I try to thermal just like I drive: Don't
cause anyone to change his direction or speed due to my actions. Simple as that. "Walt Connelly" wrote in message ... Okay, let's hear your views on what proper etiquette might be in a thermal. We all know the first man in decides the direction of the turn and we should all thermal at the same speed. The Glider Pilot Handbook seems somewhat unconcerned with the rules and etiquette and the internet information seems to be the domain of the hang gliders and para-gliders as to this subject. What say you my friends? (I think we have beaten the rudder waggle thing to death) Walt -- Walt Connelly |
#4
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Etiquette in a Thermal
On 7/28/2011 8:15 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
First glider sets the tone. I try to thermal just like I drive: Don't cause anyone to change his direction or speed due to my actions. Simple as that. "Walt Connelly" wrote in message ... Okay, let's hear your views on what proper etiquette might be in a thermal. We all know the first man in decides the direction of the turn and we should all thermal at the same speed. The Glider Pilot Handbook seems somewhat unconcerned with the rules and etiquette and the internet information seems to be the domain of the hang gliders and para-gliders as to this subject. What say you my friends? (I think we have beaten the rudder waggle thing to death) Walt -- Walt Connelly "What Dan M. said." Simple is good. Play the mental games, & imagine scenarios. Say you're sharing a thermal at the same altitude with one other, essentially identically-performing ship, spaced 180-degrees across the thermal from him, and climbing essentially identically with him. All is no-brainer until you decide he's not flying the thermal bubbles in the more highly efficient way *you* would if by yourself, which is to say - for the sake of discussion - he's not tightening his bank to remain longer in the stronger upwellings, but instead flying like he's on rails regardless of where the best lift is. Doesn't matter why he's doing it; sooner or later you'll want to outclimb him, which usually means *you* have to initiate a different course than he...whether to lure him into sink, or out-turn him in a strong bubble, or whatever. When you choose to 'go for it,' first thing is to not hit him (something the Skyraider driver failed to get right), second thing is to implement Dan's manner of thinking. If you want to implement a third - even *more* conservative thought (as I strive to do) - it might well be to choose a situation and flight path that completely rules out the possibility of the other guy hitting you even IF he *tries* to while your belly is toward him (meaning the time your fate is in his hands). Conceptually simple. You can complicate things by considering the 'what ifs,' e.g.: what if you're pretty cure the other guy is unaware of you (it happens...and not too uncommonly in 'around the club field' settings!); what if the ships are of 'considerably different' thermaling characteristics; what if there are more than 2 ships; what if there are only two but you manage to insert yourself at some 'non-180-degree-apart' spacing; etc. Nothing changes conceptually, insofar as avoiding/outclimbing the other guy(s) is concerned. Regards, Bob - KISS-ing is good/mindset matters - W. |
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Etiquette in a Thermal
Walt Connelly wrote:
Okay, let's hear your views on what proper etiquette might be in a thermal. We all know the first man in decides the direction of the turn and we should all thermal at the same speed. The Glider Pilot Handbook seems somewhat unconcerned with the rules and etiquette and the internet information seems to be the domain of the hang gliders and para-gliders as to this subject. What say you my friends? (I think we have beaten the rudder waggle thing to death) Walt I'd also like tips for entering a pre-established gaggle. Keeping other gliders in sight is not too difficult if I am in the thermal and another glider or two enters... but I have trouble entering with another glider and ending up in the correct position (directly across from the other glider). I have been practicing be entering very low as not to disrupt the gaggle, but I find it hard to judge the entry point and bank to get into the gaggle. I have been watching other pilots, and it seems they come in fast, open brakes anf get behind a thermalling glider matching bank angle, and then continue with brakes to slow down and sort of slip backwards into safer position... maybe this is not actually what is going on... but thats how it looks. any advice appreciated. |
#6
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Etiquette in a Thermal
On Jul 28, 9:22*pm, Tom Stock wrote:
I'd also like tips for entering a pre-established gaggle. * *Keeping other gliders in sight is not too difficult if I am in the thermal and another glider or two enters... but I have trouble entering with another glider and ending up in the correct position (directly across from the other glider).. I have been practicing be entering very low as not to disrupt the gaggle, but I find it hard to judge the entry point and bank to get into the gaggle. *I have been watching other pilots, and it seems they come in fast, open brakes anf get behind a thermalling glider matching bank angle, and then continue with brakes to slow down and sort of slip backwards into safer position... maybe this is not actually what is going on... but thats how it looks. any advice appreciated. I have never used air brakes when entering a thermal and if I had to I'd think I had really botched the entry. How to enter depends on the situation but there is one, in my opinion, hard rule. You never join in away that causes any other glider established in the thermal to take evasive active or even to think they might need to take evasive action. When joining one glider at about the same altitude I do several things - a) I'm looking for the other gliders in the thermal that I have not seen yet; b) I'm looking around me for gliders joining with me that I don't know about yet; and c) when I think I have the complete picture I'm using pitch changes as required to change altitude, speed, relative position, and time of the join-up so I arrive in the place I want to be. Keep repeating a), b), c) remembering that joining safely is far more important than gaining a second. The dynamics of joining a larger group are much the same. Joining wide and then working in slowly is probably good advice for the inexperienced. When in a thermal keep looking around for gliders joining, gliders leaving, and the ones behind and above you that have you in their blind spot. Use all the field of view your glider allows. I don't fly gliders that don't allow me to look back and see the tips of the tailplane and I scan back there in a crowded thermal. Also scan above you so you don't climb into another gliders blind spot. If you lose visual contact with a glider a quick radio call to ask if he sees you may be appropriate. Of course you can't scan effectively in a thermal if you wear a large brimmed hat or a cap with a peak. If you must wear one of those please take it off while thermalling. When leaving exit smoothly when your circle becomes tangential to the desired course line. Don't be one of those guys that's circling left, waits until 90 deg past the desired course line then cranks hard right, totally oblivious to gliders outside and behind. As to working the thermal it all depends who you are with. Two or three gliders in a thermal at the same altitude can work very effectively together to maximize climb rate if they are comfortable with each others style. The same three gliders won't climb as well if the 2 joining slavishly do exactly what the first was doing when they joined unless the first has a very well defined core and has it centered perfectly. And please if you join a glider cranked up at 45 deg, obviously in a good core, please don't fly an intersecting 25 deg banked circle and knock him out of his thermal. Andy (GY) |
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Etiquette in a Thermal
OK, Ok... Disregard what I said originally about not affecting anyone
else's path when entering a thermal. Here's what I *really* do: 1. Try to enter at the bottom of the gaggle. It's best to have at least 135 KIAS. 2. Smoothly execute a 6 g pull-up to 83 degrees pitch. 3. As the airspeed drops through 31 KIAS, smoothly apply full left rudder to get the nose swinging down towards the horizon (I prefer left hammer heads, you may prefer to go to the right). 4. Skillfully recover from the ensuing spin in 3/4 turn or less. 5. Slide gracefully into position at the bottom of the thermal. Oh, did I mention that, if you're dumping water as you go over the top, the other gliders will appreciate getting the bugs washed off their wings? :-) Dan "Andy" wrote in message ... On Jul 28, 9:22 pm, Tom Stock wrote: I'd also like tips for entering a pre-established gaggle. Keeping other gliders in sight is not too difficult if I am in the thermal and another glider or two enters... but I have trouble entering with another glider and ending up in the correct position (directly across from the other glider). I have been practicing be entering very low as not to disrupt the gaggle, but I find it hard to judge the entry point and bank to get into the gaggle. I have been watching other pilots, and it seems they come in fast, open brakes anf get behind a thermalling glider matching bank angle, and then continue with brakes to slow down and sort of slip backwards into safer position... maybe this is not actually what is going on... but thats how it looks. any advice appreciated. I have never used air brakes when entering a thermal and if I had to I'd think I had really botched the entry. How to enter depends on the situation but there is one, in my opinion, hard rule. You never join in away that causes any other glider established in the thermal to take evasive active or even to think they might need to take evasive action. When joining one glider at about the same altitude I do several things - a) I'm looking for the other gliders in the thermal that I have not seen yet; b) I'm looking around me for gliders joining with me that I don't know about yet; and c) when I think I have the complete picture I'm using pitch changes as required to change altitude, speed, relative position, and time of the join-up so I arrive in the place I want to be. Keep repeating a), b), c) remembering that joining safely is far more important than gaining a second. The dynamics of joining a larger group are much the same. Joining wide and then working in slowly is probably good advice for the inexperienced. When in a thermal keep looking around for gliders joining, gliders leaving, and the ones behind and above you that have you in their blind spot. Use all the field of view your glider allows. I don't fly gliders that don't allow me to look back and see the tips of the tailplane and I scan back there in a crowded thermal. Also scan above you so you don't climb into another gliders blind spot. If you lose visual contact with a glider a quick radio call to ask if he sees you may be appropriate. Of course you can't scan effectively in a thermal if you wear a large brimmed hat or a cap with a peak. If you must wear one of those please take it off while thermalling. When leaving exit smoothly when your circle becomes tangential to the desired course line. Don't be one of those guys that's circling left, waits until 90 deg past the desired course line then cranks hard right, totally oblivious to gliders outside and behind. As to working the thermal it all depends who you are with. Two or three gliders in a thermal at the same altitude can work very effectively together to maximize climb rate if they are comfortable with each others style. The same three gliders won't climb as well if the 2 joining slavishly do exactly what the first was doing when they joined unless the first has a very well defined core and has it centered perfectly. And please if you join a glider cranked up at 45 deg, obviously in a good core, please don't fly an intersecting 25 deg banked circle and knock him out of his thermal. Andy (GY) |
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Etiquette in a Thermal
On Jul 28, 11:22*pm, Tom Stock wrote:
Walt Connelly wrote: Okay, let's hear your views on what proper etiquette might be in a thermal. *We all know the first man in decides the direction of the turn and we should all thermal at the same speed. *The Glider Pilot Handbook seems somewhat unconcerned with the rules and etiquette and the internet information seems to be the domain of the hang gliders and para-gliders as to this subject. *What say you my friends? *(I think we have beaten the rudder waggle thing to death) Walt I'd also like tips for entering a pre-established gaggle. * *Keeping other gliders in sight is not too difficult if I am in the thermal and another glider or two enters... but I have trouble entering with another glider and ending up in the correct position (directly across from the other glider).. I have been practicing be entering very low as not to disrupt the gaggle, but I find it hard to judge the entry point and bank to get into the gaggle. *I have been watching other pilots, and it seems they come in fast, open brakes anf get behind a thermalling glider matching bank angle, and then continue with brakes to slow down and sort of slip backwards into safer position... maybe this is not actually what is going on... but thats how it looks. any advice appreciated. First look hard to figure out which way the gaggle is turning. It's easy to get this wrong! Then, aim well outside the circle, at least one radius outside. It's hard to end up just on a tangent, and aiming to do so will usually lead to blasting through the middle of the circle, which will lead to many annoyed radio calls. If you're lucky. Aiming outside is also good insurance against an errant glider that you didn't see. Slow down before you get to the gaggle. Don't hit the gaggle and pull hard, as that will send you straight up. Anyway, there is often a lot of rising air around the core and you might find a better core 2-3 diameters away from the gaggle. So get it down to 60-70 long before you get near the gaggle. Brakes? This seems like a looney idea. Much better to slow down by gaining altitude, but do it far from the gaggle so you're not pulling up in to someone. While approaching the gaggle, don't just focus on the three gliders at your altitude. Look above and below -- there are often gliders marking other better cores. Look for gliders above and below you converging on the gaggle. Look to the side -- try to find the other gliders who are converging on the gaggle. Your job is to find the gliders you don't see, not stare at the ones you do see! Other gliders converging on the gaggle are usually staring straight at the gaggle, not looking for you. Gliders will often whizz right past the gaggle because they don't even see it's there. Most pilots in the gaggle will only lookto the inside of their turn about 20 or 30 degrees, and almost never up or out. Thinking about "where is it likely that they can see, and where are they likely to be looking and not looking" is useful. Start turning well outside the gaggle, and, yes, well outside the lift. Then slowly edge your way in to the gaggle where there is a free spot. Radio calls are fine. As above, many gliders in the gaggle will not be looking outside for you. It often happens that your vario will not show the lift for the first half turn. Go with the gaggle for the first turn -- often this is just vario lag, and they really do have it centered. Also, trying to recenter the gaggle on your first turn is a bit presumptuous. Let them see you're there before leading them off to better lift. When evaluating the gaggle look for bank angle, climb rate, and consistency of their turns. Are they well centered in a good core, or are they waffling around in joint fear? Often, you want to use the gaggle as a backup option, and explore other parts of the cloud first to see if you can find a better core. I often head upwind of the gaggle, trying to find a better core, then drift down to the gaggle and only use it if I haven't found something better. Chasing a gaggle from below is frustrating. Often you will be low, see a gaggle ahead and 1000' or more above, head right below it... and find nothing. Welcome to soaring. In the gaggle, you will find many pilots using way too little bank angle. Getting by them is contentious. No matter what they say, many pilots will wait for a 20 degree boater to wander off into the sink, then tighten up and go inside him. Though the tight glider's belly is to the slow glider, the slow glider will usually have his eyes glued to the inside of the turn. This is controversial, as most pilots say "don't do it." And many pilots do it. If you're boating around in a 20 degree bank angle and the thermal seems choppy, expect others to cut inside you. If you choose to cut in, make it really decisive to establish the maximum separation between you and the outside glider. A radio call wouldn't hurt either. Of course you're not even thinking of looking at your vario. The other gliders are much better indicators of where the lift is good or bad. When you figure out which side is better, you can gently lead the gaggle over to it in small steps. Move your circle half a radius to the good lift; they'll see you doing better and follow. Then keep going. Moving a whole diameter is a very bad idea as then you have head on traffic where the two circles intersect. While in the gaggle, look occasionally up and out. Keep track of all the gliders around you by looking back. Exiting the gaggle is hard too. Don't just suddenly roll out! Look carefully out and over your shoulder. Then roll out slowly but deliberately so that someone behind you knows what you're doing. Don't even think of this Moffat bash-through-the-core stuff. Nobody does that anymore anyway, since netto varios showed us that thermals are surrounded by lift not cores of sink. Flying directly above or below another glider is a very bad idea without hundreds of feet separation. People pull up or dive down, or hit lift and sink. The guy above cannot see anything, and the guy below usually isn't looking up. Gaggle etiquette also applies in cruise. The gaggle will typically cruise together to the next thermal. When cruising with a gaggle, you cannot do sharp pull ups or push overs. You can't see who is there, and they can't see you. If you want to change course or go to a cloud or bird the others don't see, do it gently. New pilots to contests might say "I just won't fly gaggles," but that's not realistic. On weak days, you have to fly the gaggles to stay up. And anytime you turn, others will join you. It's not that bad, and eventually even becomes an enjoyable part of contest soaring. But do follow the rules of the road. John Cochrane BB (now "Bad Back" but getting better!) |
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Etiquette in a Thermal
On Thursday, July 28, 2011 9:22:46 PM UTC-7, tstock wrote:
open brakes anf get behind a thermalling glider matching bank angle, and then continue with brakes to slow down and sort of slip backwards into safer position... maybe this is not actually what is going on... but thats how it looks. Never seen anyone waste energy by using brakes. If I expect to arrive at the same altitude as the other glider, then I aim to be alongside and outside the other glider so I end up following him in in the thermal. Think of a 2 lane roundabout and the other guy's using the inner lane. Pull in so you're outside his turn and a bit behind, if he decides to leave, turn into his tail to take his spot, or as your energy bleeds off, slide in behind him. If coming in fast, then overtake on the outside as you climb around and settle in on the opposite side and above. Always keep the other glider(s) in sight. I consider thermalling to be a 50/50 proposition. I do half the avoidance, the other pilot does the other half (unless he doesn't, and I'm prepared for that as well). A circling glider can generally be expected to follow the current circular path, go tighter, or looser, perhaps rolling wings level. So avoid that area. If you're worried about him turning into you, then give him a call "5Z, I'm on your outside", and he will respond "5Z...". No need to identify yourself. If he doesn't respond, then don't get close. When circling close to another glider, I like to wave, and expect a wave back. Tells me the guy's got his head out of the cockpit. Do this at the first opportunity, then once a minute or two. If he doesn't wave back, he's not paying attention to you. -Tom |
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Etiquette in a Thermal
On Jul 28, 11:22*pm, Tom Stock wrote:
Walt Connelly wrote: Okay, let's hear your views on what proper etiquette might be in a thermal. *We all know the first man in decides the direction of the turn and we should all thermal at the same speed. *The Glider Pilot Handbook seems somewhat unconcerned with the rules and etiquette and the internet information seems to be the domain of the hang gliders and para-gliders as to this subject. *What say you my friends? *(I think we have beaten the rudder waggle thing to death) Walt I'd also like tips for entering a pre-established gaggle. * *Keeping other gliders in sight is not too difficult if I am in the thermal and another glider or two enters... but I have trouble entering with another glider and ending up in the correct position (directly across from the other glider).. I have been practicing be entering very low as not to disrupt the gaggle, but I find it hard to judge the entry point and bank to get into the gaggle. *I have been watching other pilots, and it seems they come in fast, open brakes anf get behind a thermalling glider matching bank angle, and then continue with brakes to slow down and sort of slip backwards into safer position... maybe this is not actually what is going on... but thats how it looks. any advice appreciated. One technique is to approach the gaggle at a tangent, slightly outside their flighpaths. Gently pull up to slow down and match their speed, then circle along the outside until you can slide into an opening in the gaggle from the outside. This way, you don't have to open your brakes (not a good idea) and can slowly ease up, slowing to the speed of the gaggle, and wait for an opening to appear. Since you are flying a longer path, the gaggle will be moving faster than you even when you are at the same airspeed. Note: DON'T get so involved in the gaggle that you stop clearing your flightpath! This is a prime place to have a midair - if someone else is trying to join at the same time! Kirk 66 |
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