Cessna 150 Price Outlook

"John Galban" wrote in message om...

I've flown and spun 150/160s that were approved for spins in the
Utility Category.

Let me be more exact. The PA-28-150 and PA-28-160 are NOT
certficated in the utility category, hence no spins. The PA-28-151
and PA-28-161 are certificated in the utility category.

The PA-28-140, -180, -181 are certificated in the utility category

For those models that are certificated with for utility category operations.
1. You have to get the CG in the utility envelope.
2. You have to not have the 2150 gross weight increase.on the -140.
3. There is a serial number limit on the -180 for utility category operations.
4. You can only use the two front seats.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message m...

"John Galban" wrote in message om...

I've flown and spun 150/160s that were approved for spins in the
Utility Category.

Let me be more exact. The PA-28-150 and PA-28-160 are NOT
certficated in the utility category, hence no spins. The PA-28-151
and PA-28-161 are certificated in the utility category.

The PA-28-140, -180, -181 are certificated in the utility category

For those models that are certificated with for utility category operations.
1. You have to get the CG in the utility envelope.
2. You have to not have the 2150 gross weight increase.on the -140.
3. There is a serial number limit on the -180 for utility category operations.
4. You can only use the two front seats.

Oh, and by the way, I forgot one important thing. If your PA-28 can be
operated in the utility category, it will be placarded as such (with the gross
weight for that category). That's perhaps the easiest way to tell (provided
your aircraft is airworthy).

Ron Natalie wrote:
: I've flown and spun 150/160s that were approved for spins in the
: Utility Category.

: Let me be more exact. The PA-28-150 and PA-28-160 are NOT
: certficated in the utility category, hence no spins. The PA-28-151
: and PA-28-161 are certificated in the utility category.

Hrmm... sounds illegal to me then?

: The PA-28-140, -180, -181 are certificated in the utility category

: For those models that are certificated with for utility category operations.
: 1. You have to get the CG in the utility envelope.
Of course.

: 2. You have to not have the 2150 gross weight increase.on the -140.
Probably not too many of them left.

: 3. There is a serial number limit on the -180 for utility category operations.
Probably the old (non-clamshell cowling) version?

: 4. You can only use the two front seats.
Of course

Mine need not legally apply since the engine upgrade expressly
says Normal only.

Thanks for the info though... I would think it's pretty much a legal
issue. The important thing would be to keep it loaded in the Utility CG
range. Other than that there's no real difference between the airframes.

-Cory

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* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
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2. You have to not have the 2150 gross weight increase.on the -140.

???

You sure about that? The Checkerbird's paperwork says it has a max
gross weight of 2150 when operated in the normal category, 1950 in the
utility category. It has both the original placard on the panel, plus
the AFM text stating that spins are an approved aerobatic manuever
when operated in the utility category with no aft baggage pax.

I'm far too chicken to try spinning it however. ;-)

wrote:

I would think it's pretty much a legal issue.

I don't think so. Two CFIs were killed near Solberg a few years ago when a spin
went flat. I think they were flying a Cherokee.

George Patterson
God grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the
good fortune to run into the ones I like, and the eyesight to tell the
difference.

G.R. Patterson III wrote:
: wrote:
:
: I would think it's pretty much a legal issue.

: I don't think so. Two CFIs were killed near Solberg a few years ago when a spin
: went flat. I think they were flying a Cherokee.

The Normal category is much more aft CG, and was most likely the
cause. I know from flying mine that it's a whole different animal in
'Utility' loading... extremely benign stall, etc. More aft it's tricky.
Aside from that, however, the airframes are identical.

-Cory
--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

writes:

: I would think it's pretty much a legal issue.

: I don't think so. Two CFIs were killed near Solberg a few years
: ago when a spin went flat. I think they were flying a Cherokee.

The Normal category is much more aft CG, and was most likely the
cause. I know from flying mine that it's a whole different animal
in 'Utility' loading... extremely benign stall, etc. More aft it's
tricky. Aside from that, however, the airframes are identical.

The different engine weights (and accessory weights) will affect the
CG and the ability to recover, together with other small differences.
The later four-place Cherokees also have various combinations of a
longer fuselage and semi-tapered wings.

Either Piper spin-tested the other models and found them
unsatisfactory, or else the test pilots wouldn't even try spinning
them in the first place (because of engineering predictions). Neither
thought makes me too comfortable.


All the best,


David

"Neal" wrote in message
...

2. You have to not have the 2150 gross weight increase.on
the -140.

???

You sure about that? The Checkerbird's paperwork says it has a max
gross weight of 2150 when operated in the normal category, 1950 in
the
utility category. It has both the original placard on the panel,
plus
the AFM text stating that spins are an approved aerobatic manuever
when operated in the utility category with no aft baggage pax.

I'm far too chicken to try spinning it however. ;-)

Same here! My 2150 pound g.w. 1966 Cherokee has the same placard on
the panel. It also has four seats. I pulled out the flight manual,
also.

The airplane flight manual maneuvers section lists entry speed for
spins, steep turns, lazy eights and chandelles.

The Placards section has this: "For spin recovery, use full rudder
against spin, followed immediately by forward wheel".

I also looked at my copy of the type certificate and saw nothing
prohibiting spins.


--
Joe Schneider
8437R
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"Ron Natalie" wrote in message om...

Let me be more exact. The PA-28-150 and PA-28-160 are NOT
certficated in the utility category, hence no spins. The PA-28-151
and PA-28-161 are certificated in the utility category.

The PA-28-140, -180, -181 are certificated in the utility category

For those models that are certificated with for utility category operations.
1. You have to get the CG in the utility envelope.
2. You have to not have the 2150 gross weight increase.on the -140.
3. There is a serial number limit on the -180 for utility category operations.
4. You can only use the two front seats.

Very interesting! Now I'm going to have to go back and check my
logbook. I was pretty sure they were 150/160s that I'd spun (and now
I'm not). They had the placard with manuever entry speeds, including
spins, in the utility category.

Odd that the 150/160 would not be certified in the utility category
and the -180 is. They're basically the same airframe. Where did you
get the above info? TCDS?

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

"John Galban" wrote in message om...


Odd that the 150/160 would not be certified in the utility category
and the -180 is. They're basically the same airframe. Where did you
get the above info? TCDS?

Yep.