Cessna 150 Price Outlook

David Megginson wrote in message ...

Either Piper spin-tested the other models and found them
unsatisfactory, or else the test pilots wouldn't even try spinning
them in the first place (because of engineering predictions). Neither
thought makes me too comfortable.


Piper spin tested the "stretched" models. They had to as part of
the certification testing. That's a whole different ballgame than
approval for intentional spins. Oddly enough, the original stretched
models were not restricted from intentional spins when they 1st came
out. Spin approval was rescinded for those models a few years later
by AD.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

G.R. Patterson III wrote:

I would think it's pretty much a legal issue.


I don't think so. Two CFIs were killed near Solberg a few years ago when a spin
went flat. I think they were flying a Cherokee.

I've spun (with utility loading) a '68 PA28-180 that wasn't placarded
against it.

It didn't spin well. By that I mean it was _really_ uninterested in
entering a spin; stick back full stall (well, mush) and full rudder made
it want to spiral. A jab of throttle was needed to convince it to
wallow over and spin.

Recovery was normal and uneventful.

Some PA28's (notably later ones) are placarded against spins, I suspect
because some CG loadings may make recovery -er- difficult.

On Wed, 1 Oct 2003 22:17:51 -0500, "JJS" jschneider@REMOVE THIS SPAM
BLOCKpldi.net wrote:

Same here! My 2150 pound g.w. 1966 Cherokee has the same placard on
the panel. It also has four seats. I pulled out the flight manual,
also.

Mine is a 1966 year model too.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message om...
"Ron Natalie" wrote in message m...

"John Galban" wrote in message om...

I've flown and spun 150/160s that were approved for spins in the
Utility Category.

Let me be more exact. The PA-28-150 and PA-28-160 are NOT
certficated in the utility category, hence no spins. The PA-28-151
and PA-28-161 are certificated in the utility category.

The PA-28-140, -180, -181 are certificated in the utility category

For those models that are certificated with for utility category operations.
1. You have to get the CG in the utility envelope.
2. You have to not have the 2150 gross weight increase.on the -140.
3. There is a serial number limit on the -180 for utility category operations.
4. You can only use the two front seats.

Oh, and by the way, I forgot one important thing. If your PA-28 can be
operated in the utility category, it will be placarded as such (with the gross
weight for that category). That's perhaps the easiest way to tell (provided
your aircraft is airworthy).



We need to be very careful here -- just because an airplane is
approved for operation in the Utility Category does NOT mean it is
certified for intentional spins!

Here's how certification works in this regard:

Normal Category operation -- intentional spins are NOT approved;

Acrobatic Category operation -- intentional spins ARE apporved;

Utility Category operation -- intentional spins MAY or MAY NOT be
approved, depending on whether or not the manufacturer elects (and it
is up to the manufacturer to choose) to spin test as if in the Normal
category or as if in the Acrobatic category.

That said, here's what I've got for the Piper PA-28-140 and PA-28-180
airplanes, excerpted from my stall/spin due for publication in 2004.

Hope this helps,

Rich
http://www.richstowell.com


-------start of excerpt--------
The Light Airplane Pilot's Guide to Stall/Spin Awareness
Copyright (c) 2003 by Rich Stowell

Chapter 16
THE TRUTH ABOUT MANUFACTURER-SUPPLIED INFORMATION

CASE STUDY -- PIPER PA-28-140
Piper PA-28-140 models (a.k.a.: Cherokee Warriors, Cruisers, and
Executives) were produced under TC No. 2A13. FAA-approved documents
are required on board all of these airplanes. The associated TCDS
refer to flight manuals approved prior to June 16, 1976 as AFM's, but
as POH's thereafter. The PA-28-140 was certificated as a dual category
airplane. Intentional spins are not approved when in the Normal part
of its operating envelope; intentional spins are approved, however,
when in the Utility part of its operating envelope.

The earliest approved AFM's issued were sparse in operating details.
One version of AFM Report VB-160, revised in March 1964 for example,
required the following placard: For Spin Recovery, Use Full Rudder
Against Spin, Followed Immediately By Forward Wheel. Power and aileron
settings are not mentioned here. The Procedures Section offers no
advice relevant to spinning the airplane, even though intentional
spins are approved when in the Utility envelope.

By comparison, the June 1976 version of the PA-28-140 flight manual
(Report VB-770), now called a POH, contains a separate Emergency
Procedures section with the following information: If a spin is
inadvertently entered, immediately move the throttle to idle and the
ailerons to neutral. Full rudder should then be applied opposite to
the direction of rotation followed by control wheel full forward. When
the rotation stops, neutralize the rudder and ease back on the control
wheel as required to smoothly regain a level flight attitude.

This POH also includes a sequential spin recovery checklist:
Throttle...idle
Ailerons...neutral
Rudder...full opposite to direction of rotation
Control wheel...full forward

Similar to the Cessna 150 series, the quality and depth of spin
information provided to pilots flying the Piper PA-28-140 certainly
was an evolving process. A rash of spin accidents in PA-28-140's,
however, prompted the issuance of Service Bulletin No. 753 in December
1982. The four-page bulletin, affecting all PA-28-140's built,
included expanded spin information and was to be kept in the airplanes
at all times.

It seems pilots generally were unaware just how critical it was that
this airplane be in the spins-approved Utility envelope when
performing spins. Cross the line into the spins-prohibited Normal
envelope--even a little bit--and the airplane could become
unrecoverable from the spin. Which hole the front seats were adjusted
into literally could be the difference between recovering and spinning
into the ground. Accurately assessing weight and center of gravity in
the Piper PA-28-140 is absolutely imperative. Yet little in the flight
manuals or the flight training environment drove home the seriousness
of this point.

The Service Bulletin also contained practical information about
spinning the airplane:
The spin should be entered from a power-off glide.... The ailerons
must remain neutral throughout the spin and recovery, since aileron
application may alter the spin characteristics to the degree that the
spin is broken prematurely or that recovery is delayed...

For spin recovery:
1. Apply and maintain full rudder opposite the direction of rotation.
2. As the rudder hits the stop, rapidly move the control wheel full
forward and be ready to relax the forward pressure when the spin
rotation has stopped.
3. As rotation stops, neutralize the rudder and smoothly recover from
the dive.
Normal recoveries may take up to 1-1/2 turns when proper technique is
used; improper techniques can increase the turns to recover and the
resulting altitude loss.

The Service Bulletin goes on to offer additional advice on spinning:
Application of full aft control wheel and full rudder before the
airplane stalls is not recommended as it results in large changes in
pitch attitude during entry and the first turn of the spin. The
recommended procedure has been designed to minimize turns and altitude
loss during recovery.... The immediate effect of applying normal
recovery controls may be an appreciable steepening of the nose down
attitude and an increase in rate of spin rotation. It is essential to
maintain full anti-spin rudder and to continue to hold the control
wheel full forward until the spin stops.... Delay in moving the
control wheel forward may result in the aircraft entering a very fast,
steep spin mode which could disorient a pilot.... depending on the
control column position [when the airplane recovers], it may be
necessary to move the column partially back almost immediately to
avoid an unnecessarily steep nose down attitude, possible negative "g"
forces and excessive loss of altitude.

Finally, solid information. But pilots either weren't getting the
message, or still didn't understand the critical nature of weight and
balance on spin behavior. Another bulletin, Special Airworthiness
Information Bulletin, ACE-97-02, had to be issued as a result. The
purpose was to advise pilots again of the need to comply with the
Service Bulletin issued nearly 15 years earlier:

Issuance of SB 753 was prompted by reports of spin training accidents;
recent events have indicated that the procedures presented in the SB
are not being followed or are/were not known to the participants in
the events. Spins must be performed correctly or the results can be
disastrous. All aspects of the spin maneuver must be understood
including: weight and balance, airspeed control, altitude required,
spin entry procedures, spin recovery procedures, etc. An unsafe and
deadly condition can develop rapidly if all of these aspects are not
taken into account.

All of the information contained in the 1982 Service Bulletin is then
reprinted in the 1997 Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin....

CASE STUDY -- PIPER PA-28-180
Like the PA-28-140, the Piper PA-28-180 (a.k.a.: Piper Archer) was
manufactured under TC No. 2A13. FAA-approved flight manuals are
required (referred to as AFM's in the TCDS). Intentional spins are
prohibited in this airplane.

The different versions of the Piper PA-28-180 FAA-approved AFM's are
cross-referenced with Report Numbers. The Procedures Section of Report
VB-163, revised 10/20/1964, reads as follows:
3. The PA 28-180 is approved under FAA Regulation CAR3 which prohibits
intentional spins. The following information is noteworthy:
a. The stall characteristics...are normal....
b. Prolonged use of full rudder during stall practice may result in a
rapid roll followed by a spin and should be avoided. Recovery from an
incipient spin may be effected in less than one additional turn by use
of opposite rudder followed by full forward control wheel.
c. In the event that a fully developed spin is inadvertently
experienced, recovery is best made by using full opposite rudder
followed by full forward wheel and full opposite aileron. The control
positions against the spin should be maintained during the entire
recovery, which may require several turns and a substantial loss of
altitude if the airplane is located [sic] heavily with a rearward
center of gravity.

This same information (sans the typo) is carried through both Report
VB-210 issued in April 1969, and Report VB-558 issued in July 1973.
The Owner's Handbook supplementing Report VB-210 lists the following
in Section IV:
Intentional spins are prohibited in this aircraft. If a spin is
inadvertently entered, immediately use the following recovery
procedures:
1. Throttle - Idle
2. Rudder – Full opposite to direction of rotation
3. Control Wheel – Full forward
4. Rudder – Neutral (when rotation stops
5. Control Wheel – As required to smoothly regain level flight
attitude.

The recommendations in the supplementary Owner's Handbook don't
conflict with anything contained in the approved Report VB-210. The
two documents merely provide different levels of information. For
instance, both are consistent regarding the sequencing of rudder and
elevator. The supplemental Owner's Manual calls for idle throttle; the
approved AFM doesn't mention throttle at all. The Owner's Manual makes
no distinction between incipient and developed spins; just as in
VB-163, however, AFM Report VB-210 recommends the use of opposite
aileron, but only during recovery from a developed spin. Let's zero in
on this aileron issue.

The Piper PA-28-180 was certificated under CAR3, spins prohibited. The
airplane was only required to demonstrate recovery from one-turn spins
within one additional turn to satisfy the standards in effect at the
time. The manufacturer wasn't required to spin test the airplane
beyond one turn--that is, spend additional time and money on it.

Did a test pilot in fact perform developed spins during testing? If
so, why? Did Piper want to certify the airplane as "spins-approved" in
the Utility Category, but the airplane just couldn't satisfy the
six-turn spin test criteria? Or did a test pilot add a couple of
multiple turn spins simply "to see what it'd do"? The AFM implies that
the PA-28-180 will recover from a developed spin in several turns, but
does it recover in part because of, or in spite of, the recommended
opposite aileron input? Could it be that no developed spins were done
at all, and the AFM's recommendation is a best guess?

The above questions aside, opposite ailerons tend to generate flat
spins in light airplanes. Where do you think airshow performers place
the ailerons for the dramatic flat spins demonstrated at airshows?
Moreover, certification criteria in effect at the time specifically
required airplanes like the Piper PA-28-180 to recover using "normal
recovery controls." The Type Certification Spin Test Procedures (AC
23-1) issued in April 1964 states, "All spin recoveries should be made
using the NASA spin recovery technique [consisting of] ailerons in
neutral position, full opposite rudder to stop rotation, followed by
forward elevator control as required..."

The context in which the Piper PA-28-180 AFM recommends opposite
aileron appears highly suspect. Practically speaking, a pilot
departing into an accidental spin in this airplane had better react
long before it stabilizes in a developed spin. And that pilot should
react with NASA Standard spin recovery actions, applied per the PARE®
checklist.

One last item: Seventy-nine Piper PA-28-180's rolled off the assembly
line at one point with placards to the effect that intentional spins
were approved when in actuality, intentional spins are NOT approved.
This prompted the issuance of an Airworthiness Directive (Amendment
39-2047, effective December 21, 1974) requesting removal of the
incorrect placard and replacement with the correct one. Mistakes do
happen, but seldom could an error as seemingly innocuous as dropping
the word "NOT" have such enormous ramifications: Proven spin and
recovery capability are implicit in the phrase, "Spins Approved,"
whereas unproven and potentially lethal spin behavior are implicit in
the phrase "Spins Not Approved."

----------end of excerpt--------

(Rich Stowell) wrote:
For spin recovery:
1. Apply and maintain full rudder opposite the direction of rotation.
2. As the rudder hits the stop, rapidly move the control wheel full
forward and be ready to relax the forward pressure when the spin
rotation has stopped.
3. As rotation stops, neutralize the rudder and smoothly recover from
the dive.
Normal recoveries may take up to 1-1/2 turns when proper technique is
used; improper techniques can increase the turns to recover and the
resulting altitude loss.

I hope anybody who's thinking of spinning an airplane doesn't read the
above and think they can just go out and try it. If you want to do
this, get some training first, and get it from somebody who flies and
teaches acro, not from your local CFI who has more bravado than brains.

"Rich Stowell" wrote in message om...


We need to be very careful here -- just because an airplane is
approved for operation in the Utility Category does NOT mean it is
certified for intentional spins!

That is correct, but if it's not approved in the utility category it is almost
certainly NOT approved for spins.

Furhter, there may be further restrictions on the spinning than just the
utility category loading. For example, the Cherokees prohibit anything
from being in the baggage compartment while spinning.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message om...
"Ron Natalie" wrote in message m...

"John Galban" wrote in message om...

I've flown and spun 150/160s that were approved for spins in the
Utility Category.

Let me be more exact. The PA-28-150 and PA-28-160 are NOT
certficated in the utility category, hence no spins. The PA-28-151
and PA-28-161 are certificated in the utility category.

snip

BTW - I checked my logbook and you were absolutely correct. Turns
out the planes I mentioned above were 150 and 160 hp versions of the
-140.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

(Rich Stowell) wrote in message
snip
That said, here's what I've got for the Piper PA-28-140 and PA-28-180
airplanes, excerpted from my stall/spin due for publication in 2004.

Hope this helps,


Rich,

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Can't wait for the book to
come out. I have a question, though.

The PA28-180 section makes repeated references to the fact that
intentional spins are prohibited. I don't think that is right.
There were several versions of the PA28-180 and some do indeed
prohibit intentional spins (primarily the stretched versions with
beginning with ser# 28-7305001). I own an earlier version ('68 180D,
ser# 28-4474) that is approved for intentional spins in the utility
category. This is according to the AFM and associated placards on the
aircraft. Specifically, the Operating Limitations placard refers to
entry speeds for manuevers approved in the utility category. Spins
are included, along with chandelles, lazy 8s, etc... I have flown
other PA28-180s, some older, some newer, that have the same placard
(these were not versions subject to AD 74-26-07). Am I missing
something?

A couple of notes on the chapter :

The 1st sentence under the PA28-140 section mentions Warriors. The
Warriors were actually PA28-151/161 models produced under sections XIV
& XVI of TCDS 2A13.

The PA28-180 under section XII of the TCDS was sold as the
Challenger ('73) and Archer ('74 &'75). This is the stretched version
(no-spins) affected by AD 74-26-02. Earlier PA28-180 versions
produced under section III of the TCDS were sold as the Cherokee.

Thanks again,

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

Unless you're training for the PPL here in Canada, where spins and recovery
are part of the required syllabus at about lesson 11.

Steve House
CYHM


"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
(Rich Stowell) wrote:
For spin recovery:
1. Apply and maintain full rudder opposite the direction of rotation.
2. As the rudder hits the stop, rapidly move the control wheel full
forward and be ready to relax the forward pressure when the spin
rotation has stopped.
3. As rotation stops, neutralize the rudder and smoothly recover from
the dive.
Normal recoveries may take up to 1-1/2 turns when proper technique is
used; improper techniques can increase the turns to recover and the
resulting altitude loss.

I hope anybody who's thinking of spinning an airplane doesn't read the
above and think they can just go out and try it. If you want to do
this, get some training first, and get it from somebody who flies and
teaches acro, not from your local CFI who has more bravado than brains.

"Steve House" writes:

Unless you're training for the PPL here in Canada, where spins and
recovery are part of the required syllabus at about lesson 11.

Transport Canada removed spin training from the syllabus in the late
1990's (I don't know the exact year). It was not part of my PPL
training in 2002.

As far as I understand (*not* confirmed from an official source),
there were two problems with spin training:

1. The stall/spin accident rate was slightly higher in Canada than the
U.S., despite the fact that all Canadian PPL holders had spin training
and most U.S. PPL holders did not.

2. There were occasional training fatalities during spin training,
including one where the rudder in a 152 jumped its stop and jammed
past full deflection.

Given #1, there was no justification for the deaths in #2 (even if
they were fairly rare).


All the best,


David