Cessna 150 Price Outlook

David Megginson wrote in message ...
"Steve House" writes:

Unless you're training for the PPL here in Canada, where spins and
recovery are part of the required syllabus at about lesson 11.

Transport Canada removed spin training from the syllabus in the late
1990's (I don't know the exact year). It was not part of my PPL
training in 2002.

As far as I understand (*not* confirmed from an official source),
there were two problems with spin training:

1. The stall/spin accident rate was slightly higher in Canada than the
U.S., despite the fact that all Canadian PPL holders had spin training
and most U.S. PPL holders did not.

2. There were occasional training fatalities during spin training,
including one where the rudder in a 152 jumped its stop and jammed
past full deflection.

Given #1, there was no justification for the deaths in #2 (even if
they were fairly rare).


All the best,


David

The 152 problem was due to maintenance neglect: worn rudder
hinges, bent bellcrank, and so on. An AD has forced replacement of all
rudder stops on 150s to prevent further occurences.
Stall/spin accidents most often occur near the ground, such as in
the circuit, as I understand it, and spin training isn't going to save
you there. There won't be enough altitude for recovery. Learning to
recognize the situations that lead to spins is another thing and
should be taught thoroughly. We teach spins and spin recoveries even
in PPL training, using different real-life scenarios (with lots of
altitude) and lots of wing-drop stall recoveries.
Some guys spin into the ground by being stupid: buzzing a friend
and pulling up sharply and entering an accelerated stall at low
altitude. They weren't paying attention in groundschool, I guess.

Dan

(Dan Thomas) writes:

Stall/spin accidents most often occur near the ground, such as in
the circuit, as I understand it, and spin training isn't going to
save you there. There won't be enough altitude for
recovery. Learning to recognize the situations that lead to spins is
another thing and should be taught thoroughly. We teach spins and
spin recoveries even in PPL training, using different real-life
scenarios (with lots of altitude) and lots of wing-drop stall
recoveries.

I trained in 2002 in rental 172's, before buying my Warrior. We
didn't do spins at all (except that my instructor demonstrated one
incipient spin), but we tried hard to get wing-drops on stalls -- I
succeeded well under 50% of the time, even in a power-on, 30-deg-bank
departure stall.

In my Warrior, I have yet to see a wing drop in a stall at all. I
don't want to risk a spin or snap roll by stalling severely
uncoordinated, but nothing that I am willing to do -- various
combinations of fast stall, slow stall, power-on, power-off, wings
level, banked -- will drop a wing or really do anything other than
make the nose buffet up and down a little.


All the best,


David

David Megginson wrote:
: In my Warrior, I have yet to see a wing drop in a stall at all. I
: don't want to risk a spin or snap roll by stalling severely
: uncoordinated, but nothing that I am willing to do -- various
: combinations of fast stall, slow stall, power-on, power-off, wings
: level, banked -- will drop a wing or really do anything other than
: make the nose buffet up and down a little.

The Cherokee I fly has more or less the same tendencies, but it's
heavily dependent on the CG. The PA-28's have a very forward CG, which
makes them "auto-recover" so to speak from the stall. A bit of
buffetting, nose drops slightly and breaks the stall. Try it with a more
aft CG (than the usual full tanks and 1 or 2 people up front) and it gets
a bit more aggressive. I wouldn't recommend anything but a simple stall
in that more aft (Still in Normal, but more aft than Utility)
configuration, as spinning could be bad.

-Cory

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

David Megginson wrote:

I trained in 2002 in rental 172's
We didn't do spins at all

About 5 years ago, Transport Canada Aviation removed the
requirement for spins from the Cdn Private licence. Spins
are still required for the Commercial licence in Canada.

Given the definition of "aerobatic maneuvre" in CAR 101.01(1)
a fully-developed spin is pretty clearly an aerobatic maneuver,
and in a perfect world, perhaps fully-developed spins (upright,
inverted, accelerated, flat, etc) would best be taught by aerobatic
instructors in aerobatic aircraft, with the occupants wearing
emergency parachutes. IMHO.

That said, I think every pilot should know how to deal with
a dropping wing, either on departure or turning final, long
before it has a chance to develop into a full spin below 500 AGL.

--
ATP www.pittspecials.com

David Megginson wrote in message ...

I trained in 2002 in rental 172's, before buying my Warrior. We
didn't do spins at all (except that my instructor demonstrated one
incipient spin), but we tried hard to get wing-drops on stalls -- I
succeeded well under 50% of the time, even in a power-on, 30-deg-bank
departure stall.


Too much bank. Try ten degrees, and outside wing will drop fairly
promptly, especially if banking right.

Dan

Am in temp hiatus in my lessons due to financial shortages but I understood
from my instructor that it was just around the corner, lesson immediately
after stalls. Let's see - lesson 13 in the FTM Aeroplane, 4th edition.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/ge...13747/menu.htm

however it's not in the flight test standards.

Lesson 13 in the online version of the flight training syllabus talks about
incipient spins and recoveries but the downloadable PDF file still calls for
full spin training. Wonder what the real story is.


"David Megginson" wrote in message
...
"Steve House" writes:

Unless you're training for the PPL here in Canada, where spins and
recovery are part of the required syllabus at about lesson 11.

Transport Canada removed spin training from the syllabus in the late
1990's (I don't know the exact year). It was not part of my PPL
training in 2002.

As far as I understand (*not* confirmed from an official source),
there were two problems with spin training:

1. The stall/spin accident rate was slightly higher in Canada than the
U.S., despite the fact that all Canadian PPL holders had spin training
and most U.S. PPL holders did not.

2. There were occasional training fatalities during spin training,
including one where the rudder in a 152 jumped its stop and jammed
past full deflection.

Given #1, there was no justification for the deaths in #2 (even if
they were fairly rare).


All the best,


David

"Steve House" wrote in message
...

"David Megginson" wrote in message
...
"Steve House" writes:

Unless you're training for the PPL here in Canada, where spins and
recovery are part of the required syllabus at about lesson 11.

Transport Canada removed spin training from the syllabus in the late
1990's (I don't know the exact year). It was not part of my PPL
training in 2002.

Am in temp hiatus in my lessons due to financial shortages but I
understood
from my instructor that it was just around the corner, lesson immediately
after stalls. Let's see - lesson 13 in the FTM Aeroplane, 4th edition.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/ge...13747/menu.htm

however it's not in the flight test standards.

Lesson 13 in the online version of the flight training syllabus talks
about
incipient spins and recoveries but the downloadable PDF file still calls
for
full spin training. Wonder what the real story is.

The real story is you still do spin training - you don't have to enter
a full spin - incipient spins and recoveries are sufficient, and
you don't have to demonstrate spins/recoveries on your PPL flight test.

"Steve House" writes:

Am in temp hiatus in my lessons due to financial shortages but I
understood from my instructor that it was just around the corner,
lesson immediately after stalls. Let's see - lesson 13 in the FTM
Aeroplane, 4th edition.

The fourth edition of the FTM was published in 1992, when spin
training was still part of the Canadian test standards (every PPL
candidate had to demonstrate a spin recovery). They have not
published a new edition since then, to my knowledge, but any spinning
your instructor does with you is an optional extra nowadays.


All the best,


David

David Megginson wrote in message ...
(Dan Thomas) writes:

Stall/spin accidents most often occur near the ground, such as in
the circuit, as I understand it, and spin training isn't going to
save you there. There won't be enough altitude for
recovery. Learning to recognize the situations that lead to spins is
another thing and should be taught thoroughly. We teach spins and
spin recoveries even in PPL training, using different real-life
scenarios (with lots of altitude) and lots of wing-drop stall
recoveries.

I trained in 2002 in rental 172's, before buying my Warrior. We
didn't do spins at all (except that my instructor demonstrated one
incipient spin), but we tried hard to get wing-drops on stalls -- I
succeeded well under 50% of the time, even in a power-on, 30-deg-bank
departure stall.

In my Warrior, I have yet to see a wing drop in a stall at all. I
don't want to risk a spin or snap roll by stalling severely
uncoordinated, but nothing that I am willing to do -- various
combinations of fast stall, slow stall, power-on, power-off, wings
level, banked -- will drop a wing or really do anything other than
make the nose buffet up and down a little.


Gee, in my Mooney I have yet to do a stall that doesn't result in a wing drop.

(Robert M. Gary) writes:

Gee, in my Mooney I have yet to do a stall that doesn't result in a
wing drop.

As far as I understand, the tricks that make for a docile stall, like
a lot of wing twist, also increase drag. I guess that's why people
don't buy Mooneys for training or Cherokees for speed.


All the best,


David