The Apology

Unhappy with this discussion? (tired doesn't count) Vaguely troubled by some of the things said but worried about losing your "man" card by defending a bunch of shrill, hypersensitive harpies determined to knock down the SSA on the way to installing AOC in the White House and rolling up the U.S. as the next bastion of socialism, presaging North Korea's annexation of California? [OK, I might have gotten a little carried away].

Uncomfortable with the message that women are welcome in soaring only so long as they're attractive (I should probably have listed this last), undemanding, non-threatening, and grateful?

No need to post anything or go on record. This is America: you can BUY your way out of feeling guilty. Make a contribution to the WSPA. Cindy's post has the link (above).

Yeah, I know some of you already did in the recent past. The difference? This donation will not specifically be earmarked for the U.S. Team. That was easy: we all knew they had a good chance of getting on the medal stand in Australia (which was the case).

This would be for women who don't [yet] make the headlines. They're just ordinary people interested in soaring who enjoy the company of other soaring pilots who have faced similar challenges. And after some of the disturbing opinions expressed in this thread, I'm sure many of them would be reassured that the majority of male soaring pilots are welcoming, even if we occasionally stumble unintentionally.

Chip Bearden
JB

On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 5:39:06 PM UTC-4, Chip Bearden wrote:
Unhappy with this discussion? (tired doesn't count) Vaguely troubled by some of the things said but worried about losing your "man" card by defending a bunch of shrill, hypersensitive harpies determined to knock down the SSA on the way to installing AOC in the White House and rolling up the U.S. as the next bastion of socialism, presaging North Korea's annexation of California? [OK, I might have gotten a little carried away].

Uncomfortable with the message that women are welcome in soaring only so long as they're attractive (I should probably have listed this last), undemanding, non-threatening, and grateful?

No need to post anything or go on record. This is America: you can BUY your way out of feeling guilty. Make a contribution to the WSPA. Cindy's post has the link (above).

Yeah, I know some of you already did in the recent past. The difference? This donation will not specifically be earmarked for the U.S. Team. That was easy: we all knew they had a good chance of getting on the medal stand in Australia (which was the case).

This would be for women who don't [yet] make the headlines. They're just ordinary people interested in soaring who enjoy the company of other soaring pilots who have faced similar challenges. And after some of the disturbing opinions expressed in this thread, I'm sure many of them would be reassured that the majority of male soaring pilots are welcoming, even if we occasionally stumble unintentionally.

Chip Bearden
JB
Chip, you got more than carried away, you fell into the trap. No need to apologize, you obviously are a good person with your own perceptions, we all have those. Go ahead and slap me down, it has been done before, we met many years ago and I always reflected on your mild gentlemanly personality.
I do not feel any differently about your love for soaring, or your advocation of what we both enjoy, I hope you feel no differently about me. My main objective has been to advance the activity of soaring, hopefully I have done a pretty good job of that. Of those whom know me will tell you that I have soaring in my best interest and not my personal agenda.
I could always take my toys and go home, but advancing and giving back seems to be my agenda at this stage of life. Hopefully after tomorrow I can say Just look at what we did, I will explain later, not on this forum, but privately.
Making assertations of sexism had no place in soaring, that agenda went out a long time ago and that is what most are saying. Many continue to bloviate and cast many views of disparity, but actually we are all on the same page. I think no less of you , I hope you feel no less of me, we just share opposite opinions. I did tow again today and the female, no, I will say lady did better than anyone. Bob

On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 3:11:38 AM UTC-4, Cindy Brickner wrote:

I have seen female pilot prejudice myself, first-hand and ugly, on many occasions.
Perhaps the most entertaining was wandering into a glider FBO (~20 years ago), at
a prestigious western soaring site, and being asked if I would like to peruse the
glider jewelry counter.
I was staring at the rental rates and thinking about flying while a customer of mine
completed a glider pre-buy inspection.
"While "your guy" is flying, maybe you'd like to choose a bauble as compensation?"
I was first surprised I wasn't recognized, then realized that in my glider contest T-shirt,
I was in the minority -- still -- and being treated like a non-pilot perhaps non-customer.
Rather than become a flaming witch, I demurred. The lady tow/glider pilot with me got outside
without busting her seams, and asked why I went so low key.
I said it wasn't worth the fight that day. I was on a rare road trip, and wanted to relax.
Thoughtless, unintentional, myopic -- but a prejudicial view of women in his lobby.

Next time, try it my way: warmly and without a trace of annoyance introduce yourself.

T8

Next time, try it my way: warmly and without a trace of annoyance introduce yourself.

T8

Evan, next time, try it the new enlightened way: warmly and without a trace of condescension or presumption, inquire of Cindy for more details about what happened and how she conducted herself that day before judging (and insulting) her. Your assumption that this was somehow her fault says everything about what's wrong with this thread.

Years ago (OK, decades), I showed up for a big spring contest with my new ASW 24 after being out of soaring for a few years. I had met the contest manager in the past but he didn't seem to remember me because when I asked about tiedown spots, he brushed me off fairly rudely. I was a little startled but, hey, this was his contest so I stepped back. About that time, Rudy Mozer came rushing over and greeted me like a long-lost friend (which we were; we went back to the 1960s). All of a sudden, the contest manager was treating me like a VIP. I thought it was funny. But if every time I showed up for a contest I had to explain I was a pilot and not a spectator, it would probalby get old pretty soon. I hope I would behave properly each time but I also hope I would be forgiven for occasionally expressing frustration, not that anything Cindy said implied that she did so in this case.

Chip Bearden
JB

On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-4, Chip Bearden wrote:
Next time, try it my way: warmly and without a trace of annoyance introduce yourself.

T8
Evan, next time, try it the new enlightened way: warmly and without a trace of condescension or presumption, inquire of Cindy for more details about what happened and how she conducted herself that day before judging (and insulting) her. Your assumption that this was somehow her fault says everything about what's wrong with this thread.

Years ago (OK, decades), I showed up for a big spring contest with my new ASW 24 after being out of soaring for a few years. I had met the contest manager in the past but he didn't seem to remember me because when I asked about tiedown spots, he brushed me off fairly rudely. I was a little startled but, hey, this was his contest so I stepped back. About that time, Rudy Mozer came rushing over and greeted me like a long-lost friend (which we were; we went back to the 1960s). All of a sudden, the contest manager was treating me like a VIP. I thought it was funny. But if every time I showed up for a contest I had to explain I was a pilot and not a spectator, it would probalby get old pretty soon. I hope I would behave properly each time but I also hope I would be forgiven for occasionally expressing frustration, not that anything Cindy said implied that she did so in this case.

Chip Bearden
JB

Hey Chip:

You are imagining a whole truckload of stuff that just ain't true.

My suggestion to Cindy was honest, forthright and made in 100% good faith. I have done just as I have suggested myself (slights can happen to men too, as your own experience confirms). It worked great. I have witnesses.

T8

Hey, do you guys remember the good old days? You know, when all the controversy seemed to surround somebody named Sean?

On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 10:13:29 PM UTC-7, Brian Lott wrote:
Hey, do you guys remember the good old days? You know, when all the controversy seemed to surround somebody named Sean?


The ad could best described as tone deaf. That was obviously not the intent, but it was the result. Male chauvinism is often subtle, and men are not particularly skilled in recognizing its presence. Pointing out chauvinistic behavior is the role of women, and that is what happened here. I say bravo! for them and shame on their detractors.

On Monday, October 26, 2020 at 2:24:34 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 10:13:29 PM UTC-7, Brian Lott wrote:
Hey, do you guys remember the good old days? You know, when all the controversy seemed to surround somebody named Sean?
The ad could best described as tone deaf. That was obviously not the intent, but it was the result. Male chauvinism is often subtle, and men are not particularly skilled in recognizing its presence. Pointing out chauvinistic behavior is the role of women, and that is what happened here. I say bravo! for them and shame on their detractors.

What is chauvinistic about the ad? If that ad is unacceptable in Soaring magazine then how can they publish any images of humans? If a women solos and there is a post flight photo of a male instructor congratulating her would that be as bad as the ad? Worse? How would anyone but these few women know a photo was offensive before publishing? I look forward to Soaring magazine with blue dots over the heads of people that have made soaring achievements and pixelated fuzziness on the canopies of flying gliders. Maybe not blue dots those are from the 80's and might offend, instead NPC emoticons over everyone's head. NPC emoticons are more with the times and more appropriate for our community.

I mean if you don't think you're chauvinistic by calling women "childless corporate whores" or telling them they'd be "more attractive by keeping their mouth shut", you probably wont get it?

Growing up at the gliderport, my club hosted the WSPA Seminar when I was 13.. I had the opportunity to meet women from across the country with varied backgrounds and a single common interest - soaring. Since that time, my first practical test was with a female DPE, I've flown a contest in a double seater with a woman who is now an accomplished Army aviator, I've flown with a female teammate at the Junior Worlds that is now a director at one of the largest defense contractors in the country and shared thermals with several others at clubs and contests around the world. Professionally, I've worked with several corporate pilots who happen to be female as well. They come in and do their job, meet the standards as set out by the FAA - just like everyone else is expected to. Some are single, some are married, some are divorced. Some have kids, some do not. They're living their life as they see fit.

Most of the women that I have met in soaring were involved with WSPA. They've all come away with positive experiences, whether they were pre-solo or well into cross-country, contests and badges. My own daughter just turned 13 and is taking lessons. We signed her up as a member of WSPA a couple months ago and I'll be making a donation in honor of this thread to help support the next generation of "childless corporate whores" as you call them. There's a good chance a young woman that started out at the local gliderport, fostered by a WSPA seminar or scholarship could be that Captain on your next airline flight, defending our country over the skies of a foreign country or possibly the next person on the Moon or the first person on Mars. That's pretty f*#@ing awesome.

Mike Westbrook

On Monday, October 26, 2020 at 11:12:53 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I mean if you don't think you're chauvinistic by calling women "childless corporate whores" or telling them they'd be "more attractive by keeping their mouth shut", you probably wont get it?

Growing up at the gliderport, my club hosted the WSPA Seminar when I was 13. I had the opportunity to meet women from across the country with varied backgrounds and a single common interest - soaring. Since that time, my first practical test was with a female DPE, I've flown a contest in a double seater with a woman who is now an accomplished Army aviator, I've flown with a female teammate at the Junior Worlds that is now a director at one of the largest defense contractors in the country and shared thermals with several others at clubs and contests around the world. Professionally, I've worked with several corporate pilots who happen to be female as well. They come in and do their job, meet the standards as set out by the FAA - just like everyone else is expected to. Some are single, some are married, some are divorced. Some have kids, some do not. They're living their life as they see fit.

Most of the women that I have met in soaring were involved with WSPA. They've all come away with positive experiences, whether they were pre-solo or well into cross-country, contests and badges. My own daughter just turned 13 and is taking lessons. We signed her up as a member of WSPA a couple months ago and I'll be making a donation in honor of this thread to help support the next generation of "childless corporate whores" as you call them. There's a good chance a young woman that started out at the local gliderport, fostered by a WSPA seminar or scholarship could be that Captain on your next airline flight, defending our country over the skies of a foreign country or possibly the next person on the Moon or the first person on Mars. That's pretty f*#@ing awesome.

Mike Westbrook
That is a lot of words Mike, now try again and explain what is chauvinistic about the ad in Soaring magazine. Anyone? Not my responses, the original ad, what was chauvinistic about the original Soaring ad that set these women off? Spell it out. Since the ad was outrageous enough to generate multiple complaints it should be easy to explain. Even if I am unable to get it you may enlighten some other RAS readers and win new allies.