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Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?



 
 
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  #21  
Old April 1st 19, 08:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael N.
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Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

On Monday, April 1, 2019 at 1:26:03 PM UTC-6, wrote:
With 200 hours I would stay away from the Ventus w/o winglets unless your instructor says you have plenty of extra bandwidth available while flying and your thermalling skills are already very sound.


Can you comment further on the differences in handling of the Ventus B with and without winglets?

Thanks!

  #22  
Old April 1st 19, 08:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JS[_5_]
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Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

On Monday, April 1, 2019 at 12:27:41 PM UTC-7, Michael N. wrote:
On Monday, April 1, 2019 at 12:11:36 PM UTC-6, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
First questions nobody asked.......
Where are you flying?
How serious?

I can only comment on 20's........
20a, fantastic flaps......early flying season, come in very high on final, do full landing flaps and full dive brakes.......drops like a homesick brick.......
But, elevator is not auto connect.......know of a ship trashed because of this.
A 20A or C, limited to 9pounds..........fine if eastern thermals. Screwed if fast conditions.
Sucks to western thermals or ridge......trust me, I have been beat in eastern ridge in a nationals......I had local knowledge so made time on gap climbs, watched heavier gliders run by on long ridge runs. Yes, ran against "DG in a LS6" and,others.
Flying ridges or western thermals, maybe a 20B.
All the 20's can be helped with winglets.
I have my preference, but I am biased partly because I was "beta boy" on lots of testing for 20 and 24 winglets.

In your price range.....I will say a standard AS ship......partly because if you learned on a SGS, control harmony is similar.
I can't state for other glass single seaters.......

As stated before, in your price range, a flapped ship is likely borderline a rat.
Bad?.......ask Daniel on his performance on a "rat ship" I know of last year.
Crazed surface THAT IS SMOOTH can do well.
Most of a result is the "nut behind the stick".


Yep, agreed I am a nut :-)
How serious? I don't know yet, to be honest. I'd like to compete in club class when I have some time built up.
I can't afford to buy or sell gliders over and over, so my intent is "best bang for the buck" and flapped for the short field landing capabilities. I'm not afraid of the workload of flaps, as I noted I have some hours in Mooney's and other complex high performance aircraft that require concentration and planning especially on approach to land.

I will be flying mountain, as I am part time in Utah. I learned out of Minden, flying wave and mountain.
I had heard that the ASW20 (a-c) were good for mountains due to the semi-flexible wing design?

Thanks for any further feedback...
Mike


Please take all our suggestions as constructive. Doing this in two steps as others suggest may prevent a big surprise.
Mooneys aren't generally flown in steep turns at close to stall.
You will be flying a Ventus A/B or an ASW20 in those conditions, and in rough air!
If you let a Ventus A/B or ASW20 without winglets stall in a thermal it will get your attention in a hurry. It really would be best to do that after getting more experience.
When looking at performance figures only, you'll wonder why people pay so much for newer generation gliders. Much of their performance is due to user-friendliness.
Winglets, it seems especially the higher aspect ratio ones, make low speed flying more stable. A friend dinged one of his Maughmer winglets and flew the 20 without them while it was being fixed. With many hours in that glider he didn't like it.
Jim
  #23  
Old April 1st 19, 09:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

On Monday, April 1, 2019 at 12:47:08 PM UTC-7, Michael N. wrote:
On Monday, April 1, 2019 at 1:26:03 PM UTC-6, wrote:
With 200 hours I would stay away from the Ventus w/o winglets unless your instructor says you have plenty of extra bandwidth available while flying and your thermalling skills are already very sound.


Can you comment further on the differences in handling of the Ventus B with and without winglets?

Thanks!


Unfortunately I can't, never flown one with them. There have been comments in other threads iirc. JS's post above is a good one, safety is the primary concern with all of this. Another tack... your instructor, and competent conservative pilots that you hold in high regard that know your flying, that you have flown with, will know. Ask them what they think of your idea and if they get quiet and take a long pause, listen . This works for many, many questions in soaring... "I'm thinking of doing _X_, whaddya think"? If eyes dart towards the ground you probably have your answer. Like the day I was considering a Diamant...
And are you sure you would lose any significant amount of $ buying and selling glider #1? Gliders are getting cheaper over time i believe so if you buy one with a good finish, are not stuck with a "hot potato" as it were, then it's mostly just inconvenience. And you might have a much better idea what you DO want, say you have a chance to fly a Ventus for example, and then be in a position to jump and buy the glider you know you want when it comes up for sale.
  #24  
Old April 1st 19, 10:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael N.
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Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

On Monday, April 1, 2019 at 1:58:01 PM UTC-6, JS wrote:
Please take all our suggestions as constructive. Doing this in two steps as others suggest may prevent a big surprise.
Mooneys aren't generally flown in steep turns at close to stall.
You will be flying a Ventus A/B or an ASW20 in those conditions, and in rough air!
If you let a Ventus A/B or ASW20 without winglets stall in a thermal it will get your attention in a hurry. It really would be best to do that after getting more experience.
When looking at performance figures only, you'll wonder why people pay so much for newer generation gliders. Much of their performance is due to user-friendliness.
Winglets, it seems especially the higher aspect ratio ones, make low speed flying more stable. A friend dinged one of his Maughmer winglets and flew the 20 without them while it was being fixed. With many hours in that glider he didn't like it.
Jim


I definitely value the opinions being shared here.
Everyone here is likely a better, more experienced glider guider than I am. I really do appreciate the wisdom and suggestions.
So I am going to take a step back and add to my considerations, standard class gliders.
I do have the concern of buying something and then re-selling to upgrade later. I'm going into retirement shortly, and will have a nice income, but still a limited income for larger purchases. I'll never be in the position of being able to afford anything over $50k, and even that unlikely.

I was going to try and get the Pegasus or Pik 20 (I forget which) the the soaring museum had listed at a very good price around 13k but I missed that opportunity.

So maybe I should look at an ASW19 or similar. Seem like an LS4 is out of my price range.

  #25  
Old April 1st 19, 11:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Roy B.
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Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

Michael:
You will find no shortage of opinions on this forum. But - Considering your budget and age you might consider buying a better glider with a partner. There are lots of nice machines on the market in the $35-$50K range, and there is a lot to be said for sharing the expenses and the fun with a partner. You can support and retrieve each other. All of my first non-club gliders were bought with partners and all of the experiences were good. Today I own one machine myself and another one (abroad) with a partner. Just a thought.
Good luck,
Roy
  #26  
Old April 1st 19, 11:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Steve Leonard[_2_]
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Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

On Monday, April 1, 2019 at 4:52:01 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

There was a Peg listed on W&W for 13K.

Sorry, folks. That glider has sold. And, would you believe. Not to me?!?

Steve Leonard

  #27  
Old April 2nd 19, 12:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

Decent comment.

I can only speak for AS.......20, 24, 28, 29 for single place glass, ASK-21 for dual......not counting many SGS ships (26, 33, 34, 35, 36), but the AS's have a similar control harmony to SGS FWIW.......
Yes, AS ships with winglets (and other brands) are easier to fly than without.

A partner is likely a better way to bump up a bit.
My previous comments still apply......
  #28  
Old April 2nd 19, 03:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael N.
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Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

Yeah, I missed that 13k Pegasus by a couple of days. That would have been great.
  #29  
Old April 2nd 19, 03:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael N.
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Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

So I just re-read this thread from the top.
A lot of good information here. I appreciate it.
I'm going to take a deep breath and re-review what is available.
I'm going to focus on a good glider with good finish and trailer that has the potential of being re-sold in a few years.
Anyway, there is a lot to think about here.
If you know of a glider not currently on Wings and Wheels, I'd like to hear about it.
At this time a partnership is not in the cards due to traveling.
  #30  
Old April 2nd 19, 04:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ron Gleason
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Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

On Monday, 1 April 2019 20:49:47 UTC-6, Michael N. wrote:
So I just re-read this thread from the top.
A lot of good information here. I appreciate it.
I'm going to take a deep breath and re-review what is available.
I'm going to focus on a good glider with good finish and trailer that has the potential of being re-sold in a few years.
Anyway, there is a lot to think about here.
If you know of a glider not currently on Wings and Wheels, I'd like to hear about it.
At this time a partnership is not in the cards due to traveling.


Not sure if you are a member of the Utah SOaring Association, there is a Mike N on the membership list, but you should be a member as you mention you are part time in UT. Four different airports, G103 and Twin Astirs to fly and access to a Pilatus when you are checked out.

The club is the best bang for your buck to stay current and gain experience as you are performing your search.
 




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