Europe as joke

It is irresponsible to act like this. And imorale.

You're kidding right? Ethnic cleansing in Europe is a problem worthy of every
nations best efforts and money, but religious and ethnic persecution in Asia
(Iraq) is absolutely fine?

Bottom line, because of Germany, France, Belgium and Russia, Europe's
participation in rebuilding Iraq is minimal, particularly in the area of armed
forces. US forces are currently, and have since 1995, been a permanent
presence in the Balkans. If you are not going to help in Iraq, we will be
forced to remove our troops and support in the Balkans in order to ease our
burden in Iraq. We have, as a nation, a more vested interest in Iraq, thus it
is a higher priority for troops and logistical support.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Since when has Europe been worried about genocide?

Since we have learned from WW2.

Rwanda was after WW II.

The moment we pull out of Bosnia, Sarajevo will be back to the times
of sniper alley and bloodbaths on market places. Do you (demanding
"PULL OUT THE US FORCES!") really want that?

It would be sad to see Sarajevo revert back to 1995, but if given the choice
between dead Iraq police,civilians and US soliders and Sarajevo returning to
1995, I'll wish you Europeans good luck. Dead Bosnians aren't acceptable to
you, but dead Iraqis are fine. I don't feel this way, particularly since I
believe both places can be made secure, however European forces will have to
handle the Balkans by themselves or help out in Iraq. You can't have it both
ways.

This is about those who demand "Pull out of the Balkans" - you don´t
start a war with Iraq when you haven´t finished another job
(stabilising the Balkans

You're kidding right? US national security needs come second because Europe
can't handle their own "internal" problems? Who in Gods name do you people
think you are?

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

(BUFDRVR) schrieb:

It is irresponsible to act like this. And imorale.

You're kidding right? Ethnic cleansing in Europe is a problem worthy of every
nations best efforts and money, but religious and ethnic persecution in Asia
(Iraq) is absolutely fine?

NO! My statesments included these from the first posting on. This
includes Ruanda as much as Liberia, Indonesia (East Timor),
Zaire/Kongo, or any other place. Acting differently means to apply
double standards. And in fact, government on both sides of the large,
cold pond did apply double standards.

Where did I write to exclude these? Don´t read too much between the
lines. Too much guessing involved.

BUFDRVR

Gruss, Roman

If the USA wants to be isolationist, it may do it, but it will harm
itself and others.

And again, it is immorale. You don´t care if people suffer?


The problem is, we (The United States of America) seem to care more than the
immediate parties involved. Why did the US get dragged into the Balkans? If the
EU cared so much why wasn't France, Germany and Belgium providing the bulk of
combat forces? What was going on in the republics of Yugoslavia could have
still been continuing today and its impact on US national security would have
been zero. Would it have been horrible to watch on TV ? Of course, but we (and
the mighty Europeans who supposedly rise up to challenge genocide where ever it
rears its ugly head) watched with horror on TV at what happened in Rwanda
without getting involved.

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Israel owes its very existence to American money and weapons.


Which explains our "popularity" among your average muslim.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

We should pull all of our Forces out of Europe, and state that they will
never
return. We have defended those weak kneed little ****s long enough, time
for them to do their own dirty work!!!! We should also kill any arms deals
with
France and Germany.

Not likely, but what is highly likely over the next four years is the movement
of European based US forces east and southeast. Naval, Air and land forces will
move closer to where the action is (Asia) and in return for huge investment
(bases need to be modernized) they'll find a more accepting population, better
training spaces and much more cooperative governments. I think we'll keep some
of the headquartersin western Europe, but every other uniformed US personel
will leave where they are currently stationed. Should be interesting.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Fancy that, being interested in our interests.


Which exactly what the US would be doing by withdawing all our Balkan forces
and putting them in the Iraq rotational plan.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Er, BUFDRVR, you have seen the ToEs of the new nations haven't you
(silly question, I'd damn well hope you were better briefed than me)?

Some of them are stretched to provide more than a battalion for ops,
very little professional military due to the soviet style national
service, and their air forces tend to be in meltdown. If you start to
push out the more traditional members of NATO, then the US will have
to shoulder even more of the burden than currently, and it's the air
components that will really be hurting.

Not Smart


Peter,
From a US perspective, we would much rather have an increased burden
in an alliance that can actually function. Right now, with France, Belgium and
Germany NATO is impotent and unless the policy of unanimity is dropped in favor
of some kind of majority vote, it'll remain so. The US understands very clearly
that several NATO nations would rather be in a pan-European alliance than NATO,
what are we to do if they choose this avenue? The general view of the situation
among US military (including leadership) is, if Germany wants to quit NATO,
great, we'll go elsewhere.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"BUFDRVR" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
France, Germany Belgium and Luxemburg are actually planning on creating
a 3rd planning and command center on Belgium (at Tervuren).

Will that mean the current WEU staff at Mons (NATO staff officers) will
cease
to exist?

As strange as it sounds....no. This new HQ would be independant from the
WEU; it would be based on the current mini-HQ deployed by european states
in Macedonia and Congo. I think it's because WUE/NATO missions are strictly
limited (the famous Petersberg missions) to peacekeeping and conflict
prevention. If we want to go beyond these misisons we're on our own, hence
this new HQ. Someday. I hope.


I really can't see how a military-political union can have military
planning
staff that includes non-members.

This is were the CJTF idea is nonsense. *Sometimes* if you can't do
something alone, it's better not to ask your neighbor for help.

--
_________________________________________
Pierre-Henri BARAS

Co-webmaster de French Fleet Air Arm
http://www.ffaa.net
Encyclopédie de l'Aviation sur le web
http://www.aviation-fr.info

It is irresponsible to act like this. And imorale.

You're kidding right? Ethnic cleansing in Europe is a problem worthy of
every
nations best efforts and money, but religious and ethnic persecution in Asia
(Iraq) is absolutely fine?

NO! My statesments included these from the first posting on. This
includes Ruanda as much as Liberia, Indonesia (East Timor),
Zaire/Kongo, or any other place. Acting differently means to apply
double standards. And in fact, government on both sides of the large,
cold pond did apply double standards.

Where did I write to exclude these? Don´t read too much between the
lines. Too much guessing involved.

No, what was happening in Iraq was as tragic as the FRY, yet with the exception
of the UK, Poland and a few other eastern European nations Europe was
disinterested in helping and quite interested in preventing its termination.
Now that the force-on-force battles are over, the US asks for assistance and
western Europe (save the UK) again turns its back *yet* at the same time
demands US forces remain to help in the Balkans. Its ludicrous.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"