Concorde Vs Bullet

The 50 caliber Browning machine gun bullet has a muzzle
velocity of about 2700-3000 fps, about Mach 2.5 but it is
slow by jet standards and has been replaced for aircraft use
by the 20 mm with higher velocity. The 45 ACP pistol has a
velocity of about 800 fps and is sub-sonic, the .22 LR HV is
just above Mach 1 but slows to below Mach 1 by 25-50 yards.
The 30/06 and other modern rifles have velocities from
2700-4000 fps depending on caliber and bullet weight. The
drag coefficient of a bullet of the heavy bullets used in
the 50 BMG and the 20 mm is such that the bullet does not
slow below Mach 1 for about 1/2 to 1 mile.

The bullet at a hyper speed exiting the muzzle would slow
faster than the same bullet fired from a stationary platform
because the drag increases by the square of the airspeed.


--
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But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
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"Jose" wrote in message
. ..
| If concorde (or and other supersonic
| aircraft for that matter) was fitted with guns then the
bullets would
| not be able to leave the muzzle
|
| I don't think there's anything special about being
supersonic to the
| basic physics involved (though it will add some wrinkles).
Before
| firing, there will be ram air pressure in the (forward
facing) muzzle.
| When the bullet is fired, there will be explosive chemical
pressure
| behind the bullet which will exceed the ram air pressure
in the muzzle -
| this difference will cause the bullet to accelerate down
the muzzle. At
| some point the pressure behind the bullet will begin to
decrease (as the
| reaction ends and the volume continues to increase), while
the ram air
| pressure will increase further up the muzzle (due to the
bullet pushing
| the air away). Given a sufficient charge, the bullet will
exit the
| muzzle and become a projectile. The speed of exit depends
on the size
| of the charge - obviously a dud would not eject the bullet
(but this is
| true of anything).
|
| Once the bullet exits the muzzle, it will slow down and
descend at a
| rate typical of a bullet. The plane flying behind or next
to it is
| independent and largely irrelevant, though it will
maintain speed and
| altitude due to its engines.
|
| Bullets typically are supersonic to begin with, so there's
nothing
| special here. Coming out of the concorde it will have an
initially
| higher airspeed than a typical bullet shot from the
ground, so it will
| decelerate more quickly. My gut feeling (I have never
shot a gun
| however) is that the bullet will have enough excess
forward speed that
| by the time it slows down to the concorde's speed, it will
be way ahead
| of the plane.
|
| Do fighter planes have guns that fire at supersonic
speeds? I suspect so.
|
| Jose
| --
| Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jim M wrote:
The 50 caliber Browning machine gun bullet has a muzzle
velocity of about 2700-3000 fps, about Mach 2.5

Barrettt's new .416 round will do over mach 3 out of the barrel and
keep over mach 2 out to 3000 yds. "Reach out, reach out and touch
someone..."

The Monk

Take that California.

BTW, I've looked at the Barrett website and didn't see the
specs. If I was Barrett I would have done a .495 first and
then when California bans those, make a 458, that caliber is
very popular, from the 45 ACP pistol to the 45/70 rifle and
a lot of others.


--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Flyingmonk" wrote in message
oups.com...
| Jim M wrote:
| The 50 caliber Browning machine gun bullet has a muzzle
| velocity of about 2700-3000 fps, about Mach 2.5
|
| Barrettt's new .416 round will do over mach 3 out of the
barrel and
| keep over mach 2 out to 3000 yds. "Reach out, reach out
and touch
| someone..."
|
| The Monk
|

One of the driving reasons to the development of air to air missiles in
the jet age was the problem of having the engines ingest the bullets
you fired a few seconds earlier that have now slowed down due to air
drag whilst you kept on motoring along at 500 to 1500 mph - and lumps
of metal hitting a 50,000 rpm fan blade has predictable results... So,
they developed missiles that leap off the rail and gain speed beyond
their initial launch velocity, sparing the ignoble result of shooting
yourself down (actually ramming your own projectiles from behind, which
is technically not 'shooting' yourself)... Further, the missiles very
soon had heat tracking, higher speed, longer range, etc. capabilities,
allowing the pilot to shoot a target moving at supersonic speed from a
standoff distance... Yes, there was joy in Mudville...
Then Vietnam came along... And the Mig-15 was a quick, deadly, street
fighter that outclimbed the US fighters and could turn inside of you in
a fight, and never, ever engaged you at supersonic speeds from 5 miles
away... Instead he dived in tight and rolled onto your tail firing
cannon shells up your butt... And even if you got behind him he was too
close to fire missiles effectively... Our vaunted kill ratio of 30:1
slammed into the ground hitting an eye popping 1:1 ratio... Needless to
say this came as a shock to our cocky fighter jocks... And the shock
was often fatal... So, they began demanding, "gimme some gawddam
guns!"... To their credit the Pentagon listened, equipping Sabres with
50 caliber guns to even the odds, and started the Top Gun fighter
school to teach the obsolete art of dog fighting... Luckily, there were
still fighter jocks from WWII who could show the new kids how to save
their butts in a real gunfight... So, in the end it turned out right
from our point of view and John Wayne was able to swagger down the
street once more...

denny

"rick_little99" wrote in message
ups.com...
I posted the question because i wanted to canvas opinion and spark
debate.....the very reason that these groups exist!

In other words, you're a a troll...

Next time you're on a plane, toss a bag of peanuts to someone in front of
you.

I assume you mean in an open cockpit plane against the wind. Bullets
don't get to travel in a vessel like you and I do.

-Robert

Denny, I think you're right, but a few details are off a tad:

Then Vietnam came along... And the Mig-15 was a quick, deadly, street
fighter ...

MiG-15 flew in Korea, MiG-17 flew in Vietnam. As did the MiG-19 and
MiG-21. The -17 was the last of the gunships with twin 23mm and a
single 37mm gun.

and never, ever engaged you at supersonic speeds from 5 miles
away..

Correct, the reason being the -17 wasn't a supersonic fighter. AFAIK
it'd only go Mach in a dive.

To their credit the Pentagon listened, equipping Sabres with
50 caliber guns to even the odds

The F-86 Sabre had 6 .50cal Brownings from the get-go and flew in
Korea. The F-100 Super Sabre had 4 20mm revolver cannon and was the
last of the USAF's gunships IIRC. Ditto for the USN's F-8 Crusader.
When the F-4 Phantom became the front line fighter for the Air Force &
Navy it was a missile-only bird until the pilots bitched enough that
gun pods were hung on the centerline. The F-4E was the first Phantom
variant with an internal 20mm. Now I read the gun debate is going on
yet again with the F-35 JSF. Maybe the designers should read up on
their history?

Whew. Sorry about the thread creep, got carried away with my history..

wrote)
MiG-15 flew in Korea, MiG-17 flew in Vietnam. As did the MiG-19 and
MiG-21. The -17 was the last of the gunships with twin 23mm and a single
37mm gun.


Did the VC throw 'old' MiG-15's into the breach, early in the war?


Montblack
It's, "Into the breach" like a break in the wall or dike, correct?
Not, "Into the breech" like the rear of a cannon or a gun, ready to be
fired - right?

From: Robert M. Gary - view profile
Date: Fri, Feb 17 2006 10:43 am
Email: "Robert M. Gary"
Groups: rec.aviation.piloting
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Next time you're on a plane, toss a bag of peanuts to someone in front of
you.


I assume you mean in an open cockpit plane against the wind. Bullets
don't get to travel in a vessel like you and I do.

-Robert




They do if you are a terrorist......

Ben

rick_little99 wrote:

A friend and I were having a debate on a rumour that we once heard.
The rumour went along the lines, If concorde (or and other supersonic
aircraft for that matter) was fitted with guns then the bullets would
not be able to leave the muzzle or it would shoot itself if it fired
them while cruising. Assuming that the bullets velocity and the speed
of the aircraft are the same, what are your thoughts on what would
happen?


It would take a lot of air pressure to stop a bullet just as it was
leaving the muzzle. The bullet would easily exit the barrel and only
then begin to slow down from air resistance. In level flight, it is
very unlikely that the airplane could shoot itself as the bullet would
be falling to earth as it slowed down and would pass under the airplane.


Matt