Flarm and stealth

Gosh no. *But re-reading your earlier post... are you seriously trying
to sell leeching technology as a safety enhancement? *No thanks!

I'm with Bill Ruehle 100%.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

We have already info of no problem with leeching from 5 year old Flarm
experience in Europe.
But if somebody who is not serious about racing thinks this way,
let him buy it.
Lets keep this myth alive.
This way we have more Flarms.
RW

On Oct 30, 7:46*am, wrote:

Gosh no. *But re-reading your earlier post... are you seriously trying
to sell leeching technology as a safety enhancement? *No thanks!

I'm with Bill Ruehle 100%.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

UH Agrees 100%

BB still has ears on and wants to hear facts from people who have
contest experience flying with Flarm. So far in this thread we have 3
posts from people who have done so, and 27 strongly held opinions (pro
and con) from US pilots who have never been in the air with a flarm
system.

As I count the three, one basically says it's not much use for
locating thermals (also my experience, but that based only on one
WGC); the second says it helps a lot, but after a few years of similar
grumbling about the end of the sport, european pilots seem to be
converging to a view that they like it, and it enhances the race
experience. The third says it's great for safety but is silent on the
competitive issue.

We (US) still don't have much information, on "does it work?", on "do
pilots, after experience, think this is the End Of Soaring or actually
enhance the contest experience?, on "what happens if you mandate
stealth mode and don't enforce it" (WGC), on "are you able to enforce
it without chaos?"

I do think we have to watch the tendency to dream in our winter
armchairs about how great/terrible the next technical innovation will
be and either demand (mandate)/ban it preemptively. (Remember GPS?
ELT?) We in the US are a bit fortunate in this case that there is a
decade of experience we can mine rather than have to figure this out
completely on our own. If we will only be a little quiet and listen.

John Cochrane BB

On Oct 30, 11:07*am, RW wrote:
Gosh no. *But re-reading your earlier post... are you seriously trying
to sell leeching technology as a safety enhancement? *No thanks!

I'm with Bill Ruehle 100%.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

We have already info of no problem with leeching from 5 year old Flarm
experience in Europe.
But if somebody who is not serious about racing thinks this way,
let him buy it.
Lets keep this myth alive.
This way we have more Flarms.
RW


Pick one, you can't have 'em both:

A. " We have already info of no problem with leeching from 5 year
old Flarm experience in Europe."

B. "In Parowan in blue and over Nevada unlandable desert, Flarm
would improve safety" (by making it easier to leech)

-T8

As we think about this, I also think we need help on the
practicalities of a stealth mode requirement.

First, It seems we would need a cockpit check to make sure a
competitor doesn't have a second flarm driving his PDA, so a few
buddies can fly "team mode" while everyone else has stealth on. Then
we need to demand Flarm IGC files every day from every competitor, the
scorer would have to know what to look for to check both stealth
status and security. Finally we would need a system of penalties for
missing flarm files or security failures of the flarm files (can't
have guys editing it on notepad to change the stealth indication).

Is this how it works in countries (UK?) that are imposing a stealth
mode requirement? Is all that working out? I know at WGC there was a
stealth mode requirement that everybody ignored. This does not seem
like the right outcome.

Second, how do you insist on stealth and not also ban PCAS (zaon xrx),
or ADS-B traffic receivers and displays? Many gliders are equipped
with transponders, and more so will be in the future. GA ADS-B
receivers are on their way as their many advocates on other flarm
threads like to point out; not very good for glider collision
avoidance, but inevitably will show you everything with a transponder
in a 5 mile range. Are we going to ban all traffic alert systems, or
without glider specific filters? This doesn't seem possible or wise.

From those with strong opinions we should require stealth mode right,
now, explaining the practicalities would help. And I'm curious how
other countries that are requiring stealth mode are dealing with these
problems. My brain hurts...

John Cochrane

On Oct 30, 11:47*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
First, It seems we would need a cockpit check *to make sure a
competitor doesn't have a second flarm driving his PDA, so a few
buddies can fly "team mode" while everyone else has stealth on.

Wouldn't the second flarm show up on other pilots' screens as well?
That would be very suspicious seeing two gliders at the same location,
so it would be easy to spot pilots with two flarms.

Wiktor Kozlik

Requiring that flarm is in the stealth mode during contests doesn't
accomplish the goal of preventing pilots from seeing each other
thermal strengths. This is because it is easy to calculate it in a PDA
using just the GPS data from the flarm. It's just a matter of time
before this is implemented in existing PDA software (some of it is
already done in LK8000). And then what? Do we disallow certain PDA
software? Is this the way we want to go?

It is certainly possible to have a PDA software that would keep track
of all the competitors, their start times, average speeds, their
estimated MacCready settings, etc. And there seems to be nothing in
Flarm to stop that. The only thing that can reduce the usefullness of
this type of software is to reduce the flarm range to only the minimum
needed for safety. Unfortunately, PowerFlarm seems to have an
increased range over the regular flarm used in Europe.

Wiktor Kozlik

Hi John,

Well said.

Just to be clear - I am not in favor of mandating anything. I don't want to
mandate the use of FLARM at all. My hope is that enough people will start
using FLARM that the others will hear how great it is and then also buy one.
If there are a few hold-outs (after a year or 2 or 3) that are the only
people not using FLARM at a contest or crowded gliderport or along a crowded
ridge - I imagine they will be pressured by the other competitors (hopefully
in a friendly way) to buy one.

I agree that it will be tough to make any big decisions until we have a lot
more experience. But that makes it tough to make rules for 2011 contests.
I'm glad I'm not on the U.S. Contest Rules Committee this year. : )

Best Regards,

Paul Remde

"John Cochrane" wrote in message
...
As we think about this, I also think we need help on the
practicalities of a stealth mode requirement.

First, It seems we would need a cockpit check to make sure a
competitor doesn't have a second flarm driving his PDA, so a few
buddies can fly "team mode" while everyone else has stealth on. Then
we need to demand Flarm IGC files every day from every competitor, the
scorer would have to know what to look for to check both stealth
status and security. Finally we would need a system of penalties for
missing flarm files or security failures of the flarm files (can't
have guys editing it on notepad to change the stealth indication).

Is this how it works in countries (UK?) that are imposing a stealth
mode requirement? Is all that working out? I know at WGC there was a
stealth mode requirement that everybody ignored. This does not seem
like the right outcome.

Second, how do you insist on stealth and not also ban PCAS (zaon xrx),
or ADS-B traffic receivers and displays? Many gliders are equipped
with transponders, and more so will be in the future. GA ADS-B
receivers are on their way as their many advocates on other flarm
threads like to point out; not very good for glider collision
avoidance, but inevitably will show you everything with a transponder
in a 5 mile range. Are we going to ban all traffic alert systems, or
without glider specific filters? This doesn't seem possible or wise.

From those with strong opinions we should require stealth mode right,
now, explaining the practicalities would help. And I'm curious how
other countries that are requiring stealth mode are dealing with these
problems. My brain hurts...

John Cochrane

Hi,

I'm not convinced that using FLARM will increase leaching. Many of the
posts have assumed that it will. A pilot that plans to leach can do so
using his/her eyeballs anyway. As it is now he/she (for example) can see 2
gaggles out in the distance. They may or may not be able to tell remotely
which gaggle is climbing better due to how much they are climbing up and
away (as seen visually - without FLARM). FLARM will probably make it easier
to determine which gaggle is in a better thermal. But again, I have never
flown with FLARM...

Best Regards,

Paul Remde

"T8" wrote in message
...
On Oct 30, 11:07 am, RW wrote:
Gosh no. But re-reading your earlier post... are you seriously trying
to sell leeching technology as a safety enhancement? No thanks!

I'm with Bill Ruehle 100%.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

We have already info of no problem with leeching from 5 year old Flarm
experience in Europe.
But if somebody who is not serious about racing thinks this way,
let him buy it.
Lets keep this myth alive.
This way we have more Flarms.
RW


Pick one, you can't have 'em both:

A. " We have already info of no problem with leeching from 5 year
old Flarm experience in Europe."

B. "In Parowan in blue and over Nevada unlandable desert, Flarm
would improve safety" (by making it easier to leech)

-T8

Nobody anywhere has flown with PowerFlarm with its increased range and
capabilities. My post was based on the information I have about
PowerFlarm and my own speculation as to what it could do to US
competitve soaring if it was "required by rule" to be operated in open
mode 100% of the time. I'm not for mandating anything with regards to
Flarm operation. Personally I don't care if some want to try Flarm
team fly, have at it. That type of team flying is very different from
radio teamwork in that you can't select your teammates with Flarm.
What I want to see is for everybody that races to put a Flarm in their
ship, turn it on (mode or your choice), than lets go race and not run
into each other.

Bill Ruehle WR

Nobody has advocated requiring open mode. The issue is whether to
require stealth mode. The simple path is to make it pilot option.
Given the lack of experience with a brand new device, simple is
probably wise. After we've gained a year or two of operating
experience with powerflarm it may become clear that this issue should
be reopened.

If the mode is optional, the predictable behavior of pilots will be to
operate in stealth mode if you do not have a computer on board to
process the competitors flarm data. If you do have such a computer on
board, you will be inclined to operate in open mode because this will
clearly be a net benefit to the individual competitor (I can say that
even without knowing whether the benefit will be tiny or huge). After
a few years, most competitors will have such a computer or display on
board and most all will be flying in open mode. From what has been
reported, it sounds like that is how it has mostly played out in
Europe.

I'm still troubled by the heads down safety cost that will come with
this new safety device if open mode is allowed. The heads down time
in the US with Powerflarm may be greater than in Europe because the
higher power level will make the information all the more useful and
important to monitor. I wish I could see a solution to the heads
down concern that I'm having. Am I the only one who is worried about
that?




On Oct 30, 9:51*am, WR wrote:
Nobody anywhere has flown with PowerFlarm with its increased range and
capabilities. *My post was based on the information I have about
PowerFlarm and my own speculation as to what it could do to US
competitve soaring if it was "required by rule" to be operated in open
mode 100% of the time. *I'm not for mandating anything with regards to
Flarm operation. *Personally I don't care if some want to try Flarm
team fly, have at it. *That type of team flying is very different from
radio teamwork in that you can't select your teammates with Flarm.
What I want to see is for everybody that races to put a Flarm in their
ship, turn it on (mode or your choice), than lets go race and not run
into each other.

Bill Ruehle WR