The Osprey Goes to War

If it has a cobra escort.. Well.. It loses it's altitude/ speed
advantage over alternative modern helicopters..

Rendevous scenario. The Cobras launch from a forward base and meet at
the LZ with the Osprey which has travelled from a base further away.

BB

Saying that the V-22 will rendesvous with the Cobras at the LZ
violates the KISS principle. And it is just ridiculous on its face.

It is saying that we can predict what the enemy will do and that is
always nuts. No one can guarantee that there won't be a threat en
route. It is just nuts to plan that way.

And STILL it means that the V-22's operational radius is no greater
than the Cobra escorts.

The concept of the V-22 was flawed from the first day it was discussed
for carrying grunts. It is the best (or worst) example of the
Military-Industrial-Complex I know.

Walt

On Oct 2, 2:48?am, Roger Conroy wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 1, 6:11 pm, Kerryn Offord wrote:
***
Maybe no more vulnerable to being shot at.. but the effect of being hit?

Although there are no perfect survivability systems out there, the
systems on the Osprey are 1) more numerous and 2) more advanced, than
the survivability systems on the CH-46

SNIP

If it has a cobra escort.. Well.. It loses it's altitude/ speed
advantage over alternative modern helicopters..

Rendevous scenario. The Cobras launch from a forward base and meet at
the LZ with the Osprey which has travelled from a base further away.

BB

Is the Cobra really the only possible escort?
I'm thinking that the AV-8 could do a pretty decent job during the
high speed transit phase.

Roger- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

AV-8's go too fast to really see what is on the ground. An AV-8 can't
supress a treeline the way a Cobra can.

I recall reading in the Marine Corps Gazette back in the early 1980's
what you've seen me post:

1. Doesn't matter what the range and speed of the V-22 is. It is
limited to the range and speed of the escorts

2. The V-22 needs guns of its own, and not one that fires backwards
either. If the rotors are tilted forward then no door gunner can get
a useful firing arc forward due to the arc of the rotors.

3. A chin turret was discussed (being the only reasonable option) but
that was eliminated due to cost.

I remember seeing this info in the MCG about 25 years ago.

The freaking thing is a grotesque boondoggle. It will never be
anything else.

I posted a video of a V-22 crash and some of the info I am posting now
on the website togetherweserved.com, which is for Marines only, and I
was banned within 24 hours.

Walt

Walt writes:

If it has a cobra escort.. Well.. It loses it's altitude/ speed
advantage over alternative modern helicopters..

Rendevous scenario. The Cobras launch from a forward base and meet at
the LZ with the Osprey which has travelled from a base further away.

BB

Saying that the V-22 will rendesvous with the Cobras at the LZ
violates the KISS principle. And it is just ridiculous on its face.

It is saying that we can predict what the enemy will do and that is
always nuts. No one can guarantee that there won't be a threat en
route. It is just nuts to plan that way.

And STILL it means that the V-22's operational radius is no greater
than the Cobra escorts.

The concept of the V-22 was flawed from the first day it was discussed
for carrying grunts. It is the best (or worst) example of the
Military-Industrial-Complex I know.

Hmm, in practice the way to analyse a system (whether a military, or
financial trading system) where the future is never known but is bet
on anyway because the alternative is to stand aside and do nothing, is
to see how it performs under worst-case conditions. That predicates
that the "best" system is never the most optimized one, but one which
is crude (a relative word, to be sure) but robust. The V-22 I cannot
judge given the information available, but it appears to be more of a
niche system, rather than one which will be used in every situation
where transport is needed. At least, with the current state of
technology. But as I said, I cannot judge...
--
Gernot Hassenpflug

BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 1, 8:25 pm, Vince wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 1, 6:11 pm, Kerryn Offord wrote:
***
Maybe no more vulnerable to being shot at.. but the effect of being hit?
Although there are no perfect survivability systems out there, the
systems on the Osprey are 1) more numerous and 2) more advanced, than
the survivability systems on the CH-46
Why not compare it to a conestoga wagon? that way it will look even
better!!Considering the incredible cost of the Osprey comparing it to an
antique helicopter that cost a fraction of the Osprey simply shows how
desperate its proponents really are.

Vince

Because that would be hyperbole and doesn't belong in a discussion.
Kerryn replied to a paragraph that directly compared the
susceptability of the V-22 to the CH-46 and the -53. Then he directly
asked about the survivability. I responded to his question, nothing
else.
What was that comment you made in the past about showing your
students the fault in getting emotional in an argument/discussion?

BB

There is no emotion in my comment at all. I was simply pointing out hat
the comparison was meaningless.

Vince

Walt wrote:
On Oct 2, 2:48?am, Roger Conroy wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 1, 6:11 pm, Kerryn Offord wrote:
***
Maybe no more vulnerable to being shot at.. but the effect of being hit?
Although there are no perfect survivability systems out there, the
systems on the Osprey are 1) more numerous and 2) more advanced, than
the survivability systems on the CH-46
SNIP
If it has a cobra escort.. Well.. It loses it's altitude/ speed
advantage over alternative modern helicopters..
Rendevous scenario. The Cobras launch from a forward base and meet at
the LZ with the Osprey which has travelled from a base further away.
BB
Is the Cobra really the only possible escort?
I'm thinking that the AV-8 could do a pretty decent job during the
high speed transit phase.

Roger- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

AV-8's go too fast to really see what is on the ground. An AV-8 can't
supress a treeline the way a Cobra can.

I recall reading in the Marine Corps Gazette back in the early 1980's
what you've seen me post:

1. Doesn't matter what the range and speed of the V-22 is. It is
limited to the range and speed of the escorts

2. The V-22 needs guns of its own, and not one that fires backwards
either. If the rotors are tilted forward then no door gunner can get
a useful firing arc forward due to the arc of the rotors.

3. A chin turret was discussed (being the only reasonable option) but
that was eliminated due to cost.

I remember seeing this info in the MCG about 25 years ago.

The freaking thing is a grotesque boondoggle. It will never be
anything else.

I posted a video of a V-22 crash and some of the info I am posting now
on the website togetherweserved.com, which is for Marines only, and I
was banned within 24 hours.

Walt


The chin turret is not just a question of cost. It uses about 10-15% of
the already small payload and also "unbalances" the aircraft

Vince

On Oct 2, 5:20 am, Walt wrote:
On Oct 2, 2:48?am, Roger Conroy wrote:





BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 1, 6:11 pm, Kerryn Offord wrote:
***
Maybe no more vulnerable to being shot at.. but the effect of being hit?

Although there are no perfect survivability systems out there, the
systems on the Osprey are 1) more numerous and 2) more advanced, than
the survivability systems on the CH-46

SNIP

If it has a cobra escort.. Well.. It loses it's altitude/ speed
advantage over alternative modern helicopters..

Rendevous scenario. The Cobras launch from a forward base and meet at
the LZ with the Osprey which has travelled from a base further away.

BB

Is the Cobra really the only possible escort?
I'm thinking that the AV-8 could do a pretty decent job during the
high speed transit phase.

Roger- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

AV-8's go too fast to really see what is on the ground. An AV-8 can't
supress a treeline the way a Cobra can.

I recall reading in the Marine Corps Gazette back in the early 1980's
what you've seen me post:

1. Doesn't matter what the range and speed of the V-22 is. It is
limited to the range and speed of the escorts

I'm not really sure why you think the Cobras will slow the V-22s
down...operationally, it would be idiocy for the troop carriers to
arrive over the battlefield at the same time as the gunships, since
you want the gunships (and Harriers, to boot) to have arrived overhead
and begun destroying targets and softening the LZ well before the
larger birds are in the threat zone. If you've got troop carriers, be
they CH-46s, Blackhawks, or V-22s cruising in looking for a place to
land WHILE the first wave of Cobras is coming in, then it doesn't
matter what airframe you're in, the bad guys will target the low,
slow, fat with Marines birds and hope they can kill those before the
snakes spot them.

But with the increased speed of the V-22s, they can make more trips
between the boat or base and the LZ in the same amount of time, which
means more boots getting on the ground while the enemy is still
recovering from the gunships' attention. Let the Cobras and Harriers
come and go as fuel and weapons are expended...there will be enough
that one flight can always be hitting the target zone while others are
en route to or from the launch point.

"Walt" wrote in message
ps.com...

The freaking thing is a grotesque boondoggle. It will never be
anything else.

I posted a video of a V-22 crash and some of the info I am posting now
on the website togetherweserved.com, which is for Marines only, and I
was banned within 24 hours.

The interesting thing is, my brother, who is a Marine Corporal and veteran
of two tours, has seen Ospreys in Iraq and on a ship in the Gulf.

-c

BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 1, 10:41 pm, Kerryn Offord wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 1, 6:11 pm, Kerryn Offord wrote:
***
Maybe no more vulnerable to being shot at.. but the effect of being hit?
Although there are no perfect survivability systems out there, the
systems on the Osprey are 1) more numerous and 2) more advanced, than
the survivability systems on the CH-46

And comparing the "brand new" V-22 with the CH-46 which is how old? (And
last up-graded?) says a lot for just how good the V-22 must be...


It was in response to your question about survivability, which
directly followed a paragraph comparing the susceptability comparison
between the -22,-46,-53.

***
It wasn't a dig at your response.. Just at the fact that the comparisons
are always V-22 against the CH-46...


How does it compare with a modern military helicopter? Heck, how does it
compare in survivability with even a Blackhawk?

Can't speak for the Blackhawk (Army) but we did perform tests on the
upgrades for the Seahawk, Cobra, Sea Stallion, and UH-1Y and Z.
Similar systems and component technology that are original equipment
in the V-22, have been retro-fitted into the upgrades for those
(previously listed) platforms.


***
So it comes down to the ability to auto rotate versus lack of that
ability (Once you get hit...)?

"Kerryn Offord" wrote in message
...
Mike wrote:
USNI Proceedings Magazine
Issue: October 2007 Vol. 133/10/1,256

The Osprey Goes to War
By Richard Whittle
SNIP
"I don't think it's going to be any more vulnerable than the 46 or the
53," Glueck said. A CH-46 can "usually come into a zone a little bit
quicker than the 53s. The V-22 is kind of in between the two."

***
Maybe no more vulnerable to being shot at.. but the effect of being hit?


The V-22 will have fighter or helicopter gunship escorts when going
into zones where there's a known threat, Glueck said, and the Marines
have mounted a 7.62-caliber M240G machine gun on the rear ramp. The
Osprey also has chaff dispensers, infrared suppressors, and electronic
defenses.
SNIP

If it has a cobra escort.. Well.. It loses it's altitude/ speed advantage
over alternative modern helicopters..

Can the V-22 fly "like a plane" with the ramp down? At what penalty?

I know the CH47 has a MG on the rear ramp, but that's a wider, bigger
ramp.. How much of an obstruction is it for troops trying to get out in a
hot LZ?

I imagine (would guess) there is an airspeed limit with the ramp down (gun
in place to be fired),
probably in the range of 175 to 130 knots, above that the ramp would have
to be up at least level
to keep it from acting like a stabilator and pushing the nose down.

Remember this is an aircraft with it's center of gravity at the wing.

The CH-47 has 3 Machine guns mounted on it, one in the right door , one
in the left forward window,
and one on the ramp. 160th SOAR CH-47's use miniguns in the forward
stations, and an M2 .50 Cal on the ramp floor.

On the CH-47 the ramp gun can be quickly removed using a quick disconnect
mount.

The ramp gun on the MV-22 is side mounted on a 2 piece flex mount, and it
can be quickly swung to the right side out of the
way of troops exiting the aircraft, after pulling a quick release lock.


Helomech

Paul wrote:
"Kerryn Offord" wrote in message
...
Mike wrote:
USNI Proceedings Magazine
Issue: October 2007 Vol. 133/10/1,256

The Osprey Goes to War
By Richard Whittle
SNIP
"I don't think it's going to be any more vulnerable than the 46 or the
53," Glueck said. A CH-46 can "usually come into a zone a little bit
quicker than the 53s. The V-22 is kind of in between the two."
***
Maybe no more vulnerable to being shot at.. but the effect of being hit?


The V-22 will have fighter or helicopter gunship escorts when going
into zones where there's a known threat, Glueck said, and the Marines
have mounted a 7.62-caliber M240G machine gun on the rear ramp. The
Osprey also has chaff dispensers, infrared suppressors, and electronic
defenses.
SNIP

If it has a cobra escort.. Well.. It loses it's altitude/ speed advantage
over alternative modern helicopters..

Can the V-22 fly "like a plane" with the ramp down? At what penalty?

I know the CH47 has a MG on the rear ramp, but that's a wider, bigger
ramp.. How much of an obstruction is it for troops trying to get out in a
hot LZ?

I imagine (would guess) there is an airspeed limit with the ramp down (gun
in place to be fired),
probably in the range of 175 to 130 knots, above that the ramp would have
to be up at least level
to keep it from acting like a stabilator and pushing the nose down.

Remember this is an aircraft with it's center of gravity at the wing.

The CH-47 has 3 Machine guns mounted on it, one in the right door , one
in the left forward window,
and one on the ramp. 160th SOAR CH-47's use miniguns in the forward
stations, and an M2 .50 Cal on the ramp floor.

On the CH-47 the ramp gun can be quickly removed using a quick disconnect
mount.

The ramp gun on the MV-22 is side mounted on a 2 piece flex mount, and it
can be quickly swung to the right side out of the
way of troops exiting the aircraft, after pulling a quick release lock.


Helomech



Thank you.