The Osprey Goes to War

Andrew Swallow wrote:
Vince wrote:
[snip]

The net result is that all of the "advantages" of the osprey only
occur at relatively long range. At short range it is inferior to a
modern helicopter in every possible way.

But the Cobra is not a long range aircraft It has a maximum payload
of about 3500 pounds of crew fuel and weapons. The more fuel loaded ,
the less armament

So how do you mix the two?

Vince

Some ideas.

1.Launch from different ships/airfields in different locations. Say
one north of the target and the other south of the target.

which one is the close one ?



2. Launch at different times. The Cobras in the first wave and the
Ospreys in the second wave. This also permits the ship to have a
smaller flight deck.


no surprise and you have to be short range


3. Replace the Cobras with a long range aircraft for the close in
escort role.

Which one? the F007 Magic Fairy Dust ?

4. Modify some of the Ospreys to carry guns rather than people. The
Ospreys can then escort the Ospreys. Appropriate guns and missiles
will have to be determined.

120 million plus a pop

Vince

On Oct 5, 12:52 pm, Walt wrote:
On Oct 5, 9:24?am, Typhoon502 wrote:

On Oct 5, 8:54 am, Walt wrote:

Harriers and Ospreys are incompatible in their capabilities, and
Harriers can't scan the terrain and react the way a helo can.

The speed and range of the Osprey is moot because it is limited to the
speed and range of the Cobra. That is just bedrock.

The TOT scenario assumes that the Ospreys won't be escorted en route
and that is just an insupportable position. That too is bedrock.

Sorry, not buying it. You evolve your tactics to use your new
capability, you don't restrict your capability to stick to old
tactics.

Your argument is with the laws of physics, not me. Until you can get
the laws of physics to change, or the nature of war, the Osprey is a
giant useless boondoggle, at least for any missions that might involve
an enemy force.

How on earth is it a violation of laws of physics to launch Cobras at
0330 and Ospreys at 0430? And I still want to know what genius of
planning would schedule the transports to arrive in the hot zone at
the same time that the first armed aircraft are arriving.

On Oct 5, 12:50 pm, Typhoon502 wrote:
On Oct 5, 12:52 pm, Walt wrote:



On Oct 5, 9:24?am, Typhoon502 wrote:

On Oct 5, 8:54 am, Walt wrote:

Harriers and Ospreys are incompatible in their capabilities, and
Harriers can't scan the terrain and react the way a helo can.

The speed and range of the Osprey is moot because it is limited to the
speed and range of the Cobra. That is just bedrock.

The TOT scenario assumes that the Ospreys won't be escorted en route
and that is just an insupportable position. That too is bedrock.

Sorry, not buying it. You evolve your tactics to use your new
capability, you don't restrict your capability to stick to old
tactics.

Your argument is with the laws of physics, not me. Until you can get
the laws of physics to change, or the nature of war, the Osprey is a
giant useless boondoggle, at least for any missions that might involve
an enemy force.

How on earth is it a violation of laws of physics to launch Cobras at
0330 and Ospreys at 0430? And I still want to know what genius of
planning would schedule the transports to arrive in the hot zone at
the same time that the first armed aircraft are arriving.

IIRC wasn't it SOP during WWII that fighter escorts would rendevous
with long range bombers at some point during the mission. They left
from different airfields, at different times, yet still often made the
rendevous and stayed with the bombers as long as they could (prior to
the long range escorts) and eventually throughout the flight while in
hostile skies.
With modern advancements in technology you would think if they could
do it back then, they can do it better now. Coordinating your escort
gunships to arrive at the LZ 10 minutes before the transports, from
different (closer) airbases, or leaving from the same base earlier,
isn't rocket science.

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb.
It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet...

Typhoon502 wrote:
On Oct 5, 12:52 pm, Walt wrote:
On Oct 5, 9:24?am, Typhoon502 wrote:

On Oct 5, 8:54 am, Walt wrote:
Harriers and Ospreys are incompatible in their capabilities, and
Harriers can't scan the terrain and react the way a helo can.
The speed and range of the Osprey is moot because it is limited to the
speed and range of the Cobra. That is just bedrock.
The TOT scenario assumes that the Ospreys won't be escorted en route
and that is just an insupportable position. That too is bedrock.
Sorry, not buying it. You evolve your tactics to use your new
capability, you don't restrict your capability to stick to old
tactics.
Your argument is with the laws of physics, not me. Until you can get
the laws of physics to change, or the nature of war, the Osprey is a
giant useless boondoggle, at least for any missions that might involve
an enemy force.

How on earth is it a violation of laws of physics to launch Cobras at
0330 and Ospreys at 0430? And I still want to know what genius of
planning would schedule the transports to arrive in the hot zone at
the same time that the first armed aircraft are arriving.


how far away are each group
you lose surprise

Vince

BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 5, 12:50 pm, Typhoon502 wrote:
SNIP
How on earth is it a violation of laws of physics to launch Cobras at
0330 and Ospreys at 0430? And I still want to know what genius of
planning would schedule the transports to arrive in the hot zone at
the same time that the first armed aircraft are arriving.

IIRC wasn't it SOP during WWII that fighter escorts would rendevous
with long range bombers at some point during the mission. They left
from different airfields, at different times, yet still often made the
rendevous and stayed with the bombers as long as they could (prior to
the long range escorts) and eventually throughout the flight while in
hostile skies.
With modern advancements in technology you would think if they could
do it back then, they can do it better now. Coordinating your escort
gunships to arrive at the LZ 10 minutes before the transports, from
different (closer) airbases, or leaving from the same base earlier,
isn't rocket science.


Sure fighters rendezvoused with bombers.. (But exactly how accurate was
the timing? Within minutes of schedule, at the appointed place on a map?)

When the escorts joined with the bomber stream they throttled back to
the speed of the transports so the missions could stay "together".. Of
course the escorts, being faster could also fly loops etc giving better
cover..

Now reverse the equation..

The escorts (helicopter gunships) rendezvous with the V-22s..

The V-22s slow down to the cruise sped of the helicopters... also
altitude.. Which kind of defeats the justification for the V-22.

The alternative is time on target.. gunships and transports arrive at
the LZ at the same time..

which means the V-22s have to transit without any escort (Unless they
get aircraft escorts?)..

The Helicopters should arrive ahead of the V-22s to suppress the ground
before the V-22s come in (The V-22 arriving first is contraindicated)..

The big problem is..

Once the mission is launched..

If for any reason the LZ is moved... You have to contact all units to
get them to (1) turn back for re planning, or (2) schedule arrival at
the new LZ...

Trying to schedule a new rendezvous once an operation has been launched
... Well.. I'm sure it would be an interesting exercise.. Lot's of ways
things could go wrong... (If the two units -- transports and escort--
were flying together.. No such problem..)

Do the V-22s circle at altitude until the LZ is considered safe?

Mike Williamson wrote:
Walt wrote:
On Oct 5, 9:24?am, Typhoon502 wrote:

Sorry, not buying it. You evolve your tactics to use your new
capability, you don't restrict your capability to stick to old
tactics.

Your argument is with the laws of physics, not me. Until you can get
the laws of physics to change, or the nature of war, the Osprey is a
giant useless boondoggle, at least for any missions that might involve
an enemy force.

Wat


The nature of war has already changed, several times. As to the
laws of physics, in which physics book will I find the law that the
Osprey must be escorted along its entire path by an apache gunship?

Also, while you're at it, please detail exactly which part of
your vast military experience makes your opinion on the Osprey more
authoritative than that of the Marine Corps.

Mike

The laws of physics are that the Osprey is inferior to a helicopter
appealing to USMC "expertise"is the same as appealing to USN Battleship
expertise in the WWII era

Vince

On Oct 5, 6:10 pm, Kerryn Offord wrote:
The alternative is time on target.. gunships and transports arrive at
the LZ at the same time..

which means the V-22s have to transit without any escort (Unless they
get aircraft escorts?)..

I want to know just how busy these escorts are expected to be.

The Helicopters should arrive ahead of the V-22s to suppress the ground
before the V-22s come in (The V-22 arriving first is contraindicated)..

Helos, Harriers, and Hornets, at the least. ANY troop carrier being
fired upon during a landing sequence means quite a few somebodys have
****ed up severely.

The big problem is..

Once the mission is launched..

If for any reason the LZ is moved... You have to contact all units to
get them to (1) turn back for re planning, or (2) schedule arrival at
the new LZ...

Trying to schedule a new rendezvous once an operation has been launched
.. Well.. I'm sure it would be an interesting exercise.. Lot's of ways
things could go wrong... (If the two units -- transports and escort--
were flying together.. No such problem..)

Do the V-22s circle at altitude until the LZ is considered safe?

They can stay further from the LZ or hot zone because they can go
further, faster when it's clear, which I'd think is an asset.

Again you lose the speed advantage , the only rationale for this one
trick pony

so that newcomers understand.

The ospreys speed advantage in horizontal flight is derived from
rotating the prop rotors to horizontal flight. However this put an
absolute maximum size on both the rotor and the cabin. Both are
inefficiently small The small "prop rotors" are inefficient in vertical
flight. They are far smaller than an efficient helicopter rotor driven
by the same horsepower. So the horsepower requirements are enormous for
the lift.

Because the horsepower requirements are enormous the osprey has the
Engines of a heavy lift helicopter and the cargo capabilities of a
medium lift helicopter.

The small rotors are driven faster which creates far greater down wash
as they land.

The tilt machinery and long drive shaft required to deal with engine
failure impose a permanent weight penalty. so weight control was critical.

The net result is that all of the "advantages" of the osprey only occur
at relatively long range. At short range it is inferior to a modern
helicopter in every possible way.

But the Cobra is not a long range aircraft It has a maximum payload of
about 3500 pounds of crew fuel and weapons. The more fuel loaded , the
less armament

Helos are by their nature not long range propositions.

The Osprey is a worst of both worlds proposition. It's pessimal.
Worse even than the Canadair tilt wing transports of the 60s.

Helos are poor escort platforms, unless some bizarre hover-fight is
envisioned. A WWII recip fighter would be a better escort.

Sadly, some politician's kid is going to have to die in a horrific
crash-along with thirty or so other people-before the Osprey is
euthanized.

The laws of physics are that the Osprey is inferior to a helicopter
appealing to USMC "expertise"is the same as appealing to USN Battleship
expertise in the WWII era

Sacred Vessels.

On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 13:39:29 -0700, BlackBeard
wrote:

With modern advancements

How do they differ from advances? Someone invented a new word while my
back was turned.

Casady