Near miss from space junk.

chris writes:

I fear it's even worse than you think, at least in this country, where
private aircraft ownership is quite rare. Most light a/c are either
aero club owned, i.e. 172 / Cherokee, or commercial, like Senecas and
the like.. And on the whole, avionics tends to get neglected. The
vast majority of club a/c wouldn't have GPS, let alone glass cockpits
or TCAS. I have seen inside some commercial operated light a/c like
Senecas and Aztecs and you'd probably be horrified at how basic they
are. Just a couple of ADFs and VORs and that's all they get. Maybe a
DME thrown in for good measure...

And don't think they get maintained either. If the a/c came with IFR
gear and isn't being used for IFR, like at an aero club, when things
like DME and VOR break down they don't get fixed, they just get
placarded as inop. Same as fuel gauges. Of 9 planes at our club,
only 4 have working fuel gauges!! The rest are just placarded u/s.
And the only reason there are 4 planes that have gauges that work is 3
of them are brand new a/craft. The deal with fuel gauges is, we know
the fuel burn and we have a stick to dip the tank on preflight, what
do we need gauges for ???

All the more reason to stick with simulation: all the avionics always work.

And if your club is skimping on maintenance of instruments, what else is it
skimping on? No wonder GA is so dangerous.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On Apr 2, 10:11 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
chris writes:
I fear it's even worse than you think, at least in this country, where
private aircraft ownership is quite rare. Most light a/c are either
aero club owned, i.e. 172 / Cherokee, or commercial, like Senecas and
the like.. And on the whole, avionics tends to get neglected. The
vast majority of club a/c wouldn't have GPS, let alone glass cockpits
or TCAS. I have seen inside some commercial operated light a/c like
Senecas and Aztecs and you'd probably be horrified at how basic they
are. Just a couple of ADFs and VORs and that's all they get. Maybe a
DME thrown in for good measure...

And don't think they get maintained either. If the a/c came with IFR
gear and isn't being used for IFR, like at an aero club, when things
like DME and VOR break down they don't get fixed, they just get
placarded as inop. Same as fuel gauges. Of 9 planes at our club,
only 4 have working fuel gauges!! The rest are just placarded u/s.
And the only reason there are 4 planes that have gauges that work is 3
of them are brand new a/craft. The deal with fuel gauges is, we know
the fuel burn and we have a stick to dip the tank on preflight, what
do we need gauges for ???

All the more reason to stick with simulation: all the avionics always work.

And if your club is skimping on maintenance of instruments, what else is it
skimping on? No wonder GA is so dangerous.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


As I tried to point out, the stuff that is placarded is the stuff
that's optional. I am not trained to use a VOR, for instance, so
having it placarded inop doesn't make any difference to me. All the
things I actually need definitely work.

And as far as maintenance goes, GA aircraft are required to have 100
hour checks, but we also do 50 hour checks and anything that needs
doing is put right or it doesn't go back into the air.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

chris writes:

I fear it's even worse than you think, at least in this country,
where private aircraft ownership is quite rare. Most light a/c are
either aero club owned, i.e. 172 / Cherokee, or commercial, like
Senecas and the like.. And on the whole, avionics tends to get
neglected. The vast majority of club a/c wouldn't have GPS, let
alone glass cockpits or TCAS. I have seen inside some commercial
operated light a/c like Senecas and Aztecs and you'd probably be
horrified at how basic they are. Just a couple of ADFs and VORs and
that's all they get. Maybe a DME thrown in for good measure...

And don't think they get maintained either. If the a/c came with IFR
gear and isn't being used for IFR, like at an aero club, when things
like DME and VOR break down they don't get fixed, they just get
placarded as inop. Same as fuel gauges. Of 9 planes at our club,
only 4 have working fuel gauges!! The rest are just placarded u/s.
And the only reason there are 4 planes that have gauges that work is
3 of them are brand new a/craft. The deal with fuel gauges is, we
know the fuel burn and we have a stick to dip the tank on preflight,
what do we need gauges for ???

All the more reason to stick with simulation: all the avionics always
work.

No they don't there aren't any avionics. and if you need them to fly,
your not a pilot anyway.

Fjukkwit.


And if your club is skimping on maintenance of instruments, what else
is it skimping on? No wonder GA is so dangerous.

Oh, what a contentious statement. Hope it doesn't upset anybody lameboi.

Bertie

"chris" wrote in
oups.com:

On Apr 2, 10:11 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
chris writes:
I fear it's even worse than you think, at least in this country,
where private aircraft ownership is quite rare. Most light a/c are
either aero club owned, i.e. 172 / Cherokee, or commercial, like
Senecas and the like.. And on the whole, avionics tends to get
neglected. The vast majority of club a/c wouldn't have GPS, let
alone glass cockpits or TCAS. I have seen inside some commercial
operated light a/c like Senecas and Aztecs and you'd probably be
horrified at how basic they are. Just a couple of ADFs and VORs
and that's all they get. Maybe a DME thrown in for good measure...

And don't think they get maintained either. If the a/c came with
IFR gear and isn't being used for IFR, like at an aero club, when
things like DME and VOR break down they don't get fixed, they just
get placarded as inop. Same as fuel gauges. Of 9 planes at our
club, only 4 have working fuel gauges!! The rest are just
placarded u/s. And the only reason there are 4 planes that have
gauges that work is 3 of them are brand new a/craft. The deal with
fuel gauges is, we know the fuel burn and we have a stick to dip
the tank on preflight, what do we need gauges for ???

All the more reason to stick with simulation: all the avionics always
work.

And if your club is skimping on maintenance of instruments, what else
is it skimping on? No wonder GA is so dangerous.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.- Hide quoted text
-

- Show quoted text -


As I tried to point out, the stuff that is placarded is the stuff
that's optional. I am not trained to use a VOR, for instance, so
having it placarded inop doesn't make any difference to me. All the
things I actually need definitely work.

And as far as maintenance goes, GA aircraft are required to have 100
hour checks, but we also do 50 hour checks and anything that needs
doing is put right or it doesn't go back into the air.

They're not, actually. only if they're for hire in the US. Otherwise,
only an annual is required.


Bertie

On Apr 2, 12:37 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"chris" wrote groups.com:





On Apr 2, 10:11 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
chris writes:
I fear it's even worse than you think, at least in this country,
where private aircraft ownership is quite rare. Most light a/c are
either aero club owned, i.e. 172 / Cherokee, or commercial, like
Senecas and the like.. And on the whole, avionics tends to get
neglected. The vast majority of club a/c wouldn't have GPS, let
alone glass cockpits or TCAS. I have seen inside some commercial
operated light a/c like Senecas and Aztecs and you'd probably be
horrified at how basic they are. Just a couple of ADFs and VORs
and that's all they get. Maybe a DME thrown in for good measure...

And don't think they get maintained either. If the a/c came with
IFR gear and isn't being used for IFR, like at an aero club, when
things like DME and VOR break down they don't get fixed, they just
get placarded as inop. Same as fuel gauges. Of 9 planes at our
club, only 4 have working fuel gauges!! The rest are just
placarded u/s. And the only reason there are 4 planes that have
gauges that work is 3 of them are brand new a/craft. The deal with
fuel gauges is, we know the fuel burn and we have a stick to dip
the tank on preflight, what do we need gauges for ???

All the more reason to stick with simulation: all the avionics always
work.

And if your club is skimping on maintenance of instruments, what else
is it skimping on? No wonder GA is so dangerous.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.- Hide quoted text
-

- Show quoted text -

As I tried to point out, the stuff that is placarded is the stuff
that's optional. I am not trained to use a VOR, for instance, so
having it placarded inop doesn't make any difference to me. All the
things I actually need definitely work.

And as far as maintenance goes, GA aircraft are required to have 100
hour checks, but we also do 50 hour checks and anything that needs
doing is put right or it doesn't go back into the air.

They're not, actually. only if they're for hire in the US. Otherwise,
only an annual is required.

Bertie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well I only speak from my experience here in NZ, but I am 99.9 % sure
it's 100hr/ARA as a minimum here. Other countires of course will be
different. I had a brief exposure to Aussie CASA maintenance rules
and regs and didn't like them one little bit, compared to NZ..

"chris" wrote in
oups.com:

On Apr 2, 12:37 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"chris" wrote
groups.com:





On Apr 2, 10:11 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
chris writes:
I fear it's even worse than you think, at least in this country,
where private aircraft ownership is quite rare. Most light a/c
are either aero club owned, i.e. 172 / Cherokee, or commercial,
like Senecas and the like.. And on the whole, avionics tends to
get neglected. The vast majority of club a/c wouldn't have GPS,
let alone glass cockpits or TCAS. I have seen inside some
commercial operated light a/c like Senecas and Aztecs and you'd
probably be horrified at how basic they are. Just a couple of
ADFs and VORs and that's all they get. Maybe a DME thrown in for
good measure...

And don't think they get maintained either. If the a/c came
with IFR gear and isn't being used for IFR, like at an aero
club, when things like DME and VOR break down they don't get
fixed, they just get placarded as inop. Same as fuel gauges.
Of 9 planes at our club, only 4 have working fuel gauges!! The
rest are just placarded u/s. And the only reason there are 4
planes that have gauges that work is 3 of them are brand new
a/craft. The deal with fuel gauges is, we know the fuel burn
and we have a stick to dip the tank on preflight, what do we
need gauges for ???

All the more reason to stick with simulation: all the avionics
always work.

And if your club is skimping on maintenance of instruments, what
else is it skimping on? No wonder GA is so dangerous.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

As I tried to point out, the stuff that is placarded is the stuff
that's optional. I am not trained to use a VOR, for instance, so
having it placarded inop doesn't make any difference to me. All
the things I actually need definitely work.

And as far as maintenance goes, GA aircraft are required to have
100 hour checks, but we also do 50 hour checks and anything that
needs doing is put right or it doesn't go back into the air.

They're not, actually. only if they're for hire in the US. Otherwise,
only an annual is required.

Bertie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well I only speak from my experience here in NZ, but I am 99.9 % sure
it's 100hr/ARA as a minimum here. Other countires of course will be
different. I had a brief exposure to Aussie CASA maintenance rules
and regs and didn't like them one little bit, compared to NZ..

Yeah., probably you have inherited the anal retentive Brit rules dreamt
up by the Committee Against Aviation. I don't know much about your
rules, but Oz has some very good stuff regarding homebuilts, for
instance. Some of the most sensible in the world.. OTOH, they have some
of the most nightmarish pilot certification rules going. Ostensibly
aimed at keeping things tight and getting "too outback"


Bertie

On Apr 2, 1:23 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"chris" wrote groups.com:





On Apr 2, 12:37 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"chris" wrote
groups.com:

On Apr 2, 10:11 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
chris writes:
I fear it's even worse than you think, at least in this country,
where private aircraft ownership is quite rare. Most light a/c
are either aero club owned, i.e. 172 / Cherokee, or commercial,
like Senecas and the like.. And on the whole, avionics tends to
get neglected. The vast majority of club a/c wouldn't have GPS,
let alone glass cockpits or TCAS. I have seen inside some
commercial operated light a/c like Senecas and Aztecs and you'd
probably be horrified at how basic they are. Just a couple of
ADFs and VORs and that's all they get. Maybe a DME thrown in for
good measure...

And don't think they get maintained either. If the a/c came
with IFR gear and isn't being used for IFR, like at an aero
club, when things like DME and VOR break down they don't get
fixed, they just get placarded as inop. Same as fuel gauges.
Of 9 planes at our club, only 4 have working fuel gauges!! The
rest are just placarded u/s. And the only reason there are 4
planes that have gauges that work is 3 of them are brand new
a/craft. The deal with fuel gauges is, we know the fuel burn
and we have a stick to dip the tank on preflight, what do we
need gauges for ???

All the more reason to stick with simulation: all the avionics
always work.

And if your club is skimping on maintenance of instruments, what
else is it skimping on? No wonder GA is so dangerous.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

As I tried to point out, the stuff that is placarded is the stuff
that's optional. I am not trained to use a VOR, for instance, so
having it placarded inop doesn't make any difference to me. All
the things I actually need definitely work.

And as far as maintenance goes, GA aircraft are required to have
100 hour checks, but we also do 50 hour checks and anything that
needs doing is put right or it doesn't go back into the air.

They're not, actually. only if they're for hire in the US. Otherwise,
only an annual is required.

Bertie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well I only speak from my experience here in NZ, but I am 99.9 % sure
it's 100hr/ARA as a minimum here. Other countires of course will be
different. I had a brief exposure to Aussie CASA maintenance rules
and regs and didn't like them one little bit, compared to NZ..

Yeah., probably you have inherited the anal retentive Brit rules dreamt
up by the Committee Against Aviation. I don't know much about your
rules, but Oz has some very good stuff regarding homebuilts, for
instance. Some of the most sensible in the world.. OTOH, they have some
of the most nightmarish pilot certification rules going. Ostensibly
aimed at keeping things tight and getting "too outback"

Bertie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some of the bush pilots over here can be scary too..

One of them put on a right display of knobness in front of us and then
asked why he keeps getting filed on whenever he goes flying...

chris wrote:
On Mar 30, 5:19 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
chris writes:
None of the small aircraft I have ever flown has had TCAS.. Are you
sure you got that right ???
By "often used," I meant "when present on small aircraft, this is the type
usually used," because it's cheaper. I don't think TCAS is really present
very much on small GA aircraft, but I don't have actual figures. Since good
avionics represent a substantial portion of the total cost of an aircraft, it
follows that one wouldn't see advanced avionics that often on aircraft that
are not otherwise very expensive. Who would install $2 million of avionics on
a $90,000 aircraft?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

I fear it's even worse than you think, at least in this country, where
private aircraft ownership is quite rare. Most light a/c are either
aero club owned, i.e. 172 / Cherokee, or commercial, like Senecas and
the like.. And on the whole, avionics tends to get neglected. The
vast majority of club a/c wouldn't have GPS, let alone glass cockpits
or TCAS. I have seen inside some commercial operated light a/c like
Senecas and Aztecs and you'd probably be horrified at how basic they
are. Just a couple of ADFs and VORs and that's all they get. Maybe a
DME thrown in for good measure...

And don't think they get maintained either. If the a/c came with IFR
gear and isn't being used for IFR, like at an aero club, when things
like DME and VOR break down they don't get fixed, they just get
placarded as inop. Same as fuel gauges. Of 9 planes at our club,
only 4 have working fuel gauges!! The rest are just placarded u/s.
And the only reason there are 4 planes that have gauges that work is 3
of them are brand new a/craft. The deal with fuel gauges is, we know
the fuel burn and we have a stick to dip the tank on preflight, what
do we need gauges for ???


Hi Chris,

Doesn't the MEL in part 91.509 say that fuel gauges are required... Are
you saying that the director CAA has deemed that working (not
necessarily accurate) fuel gauges are not required in your club -what gives?

Cheers MC

On 2007-04-01, chris wrote:
only 4 have working fuel gauges!! The rest are just placarded u/s.
And the only reason there are 4 planes that have gauges that work is 3
of them are brand new a/craft. The deal with fuel gauges is, we know
the fuel burn and we have a stick to dip the tank on preflight, what
do we need gauges for ???

That's a hazardous attitude, and a fuel exhaustion accident waiting to
happen. The fuel gauges should not be relied on - this is true - but
they should work as they provide a useful cross check.

I was new to the 1960 Cessna 182 which I was taking on a long cross
country trip. The night before, I checked the fuel to make sure I didn't
need to have it topped off, since I was leaving before the FBO would be
open. Looking into the tank, the fuel was at the top. I checked it again
the next morning as part of my preflight. The fuel level was the same.

I had calculated my fuel burn for the trip, which gave me an hour's
reserve on landing.

Halfway through the trip, the fuel gauges showed less fuel than my
calculations said the tanks should have, so I told ATC that I was going
to land short of my destination.

I then discovered that what looked like full wasn't really - probably
about 45 minutes off full. I could have ended up at my destination with
only 15 minutes of fuel. A go around, or a vexatious routing from ATC
could quite easily have exhausted that.

The important lesson is to be conservative with long flights in an
unfamiliar aircraft, and that fuel gauges are a very useful cross check.
How many fuel exhaustions have happened because fuel gauges have been
improperly maintained, could not provide a cross check, and the pilot's
calculation was wrong? Or the pilot had less fuel than he thought? Or
there was a leak?

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

On 2007-04-02, chris wrote:
As I tried to point out, the stuff that is placarded is the stuff
that's optional. I am not trained to use a VOR, for instance, so
having it placarded inop doesn't make any difference to me. All the
things I actually need definitely work.

You can train yourself to use the VOR quite easily, it's very simple to
use, and is a useful navigational cross check even if you're strictly
VFR (or flying VFR direct, you can use cross radials as navigational
cross checks).

The pilot's license is after all a license to learn, and avionics should
not be left out of that learning!

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de