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#11
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James Linn wrote: "S. Sampson" wrote in message ... "codefy" wrote Some American hero. When Lindbergh died in Hawaii did he consider the people there with any more maturity than when he made his racist comments or did he just consider them his coolies ? If there's a Hell I'm sure Lindbergh is roasting there for his racism & Nazi sympathies. You have to wonder how Lindbergh's grandson deals with that nasty part of the legend that he's living off of. Lindbergh's been dead longer than you've been alive. Only a red-neck would equate pacifism with sympathism. Just watched A&E Biography on the man - he was more than sympathetic - he admired Hitler. At one point he was going to move to Germany(1938), but Kristallnacht disturbed him and his wife, so he never bought the house and did move back to America. Some timetimes we all need a face slap to wake us up. I'd have to say that while he was a mechanical genius and great aviator, he wasn't a great intellectual. He seems to have absorbed the views of some of his friends and made them his own. While his views on eugenics and Jews were and are abhorrent, I'm not sure they came from his heart either. He was caught up in hero worship - of Hitler and others. And he seemed also to be a contrarians - whatever Roosevelt said was bad. It cost him his Army Air Corps Career. Most folks of the time wouldn't shed a tear if you hung a black man from a tree either. And Jews didn't have a large fan club either. Times change as does morality. Hittler had fans here & in the UK. Some misguided folk still are...... And yes he was snowed by the Nazis about the power of the Luftwaffe - they played him - and he delivered the message the Nazi's wanted -that the Luftwaffe was invincible. Lindbergh passed the message on to Ambassador Kennedy - who was more than ready to believe it, being anti British. More discerning people in the state department took it with a grain of salt. I'm sure someone here has read a decent biography of the man which covers this stuff. James Linn Well till the Battle of Britan they were unbeaten....... |
#12
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"George R. Gonzalez" wrote: "Cecil Turner" wrote in message ... Make sure it also covers his work in the Pacific during WWII as a civilian tech rep in front-line units (flight test and profiling P-38s that resulted in nearly double operational range). Provides a bit of balance. rgds, KTF I've always wondered about this..... I first read abot his range-enhancing exploits in reader's Digest when I was about 13 yrs old, and it greatly impressed me at the time. Since then, I've picked up a few old airplane tech manuals, and at least in the B-17, B-29, B-24, P-51 ones I've seen, they ALL have charts in the back with all kinds of airspeed-vs-manifold pressure vs rpm vs range curves. The B-24 manual IIRC even goes to great lengths explaining the right way to lean out the engines, and several scary stories about the crews that never made it back to base because they forgot to go to lean-running mode. So did the P-38 go out to the pilots without any range vs airspeed vs rpm vs mixture charts?? Or did the pilots ignore the charts, or what? Methinks the Linberg story is a bit too neat to be totally correct. Regards, George The guys were a little too busy staying out of someone's gun sight to experiment. Their training didn't push such things ether. |
#13
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Don't forget that after Pearl Harbor Lindbergh volunteered for active duty and
was denied several times by Roosevelt who harbored a grudge over Lindbergh's comments on the superiority of the Luftwaffe in the late 1930's. He tried to resume his Col.'s commission in the reserve. It's a little leaden of him to insist on that; had he shown up at an enlistment office they would have had to take him and he would have lasted about a week as a private; national outcry would have insisted he take the role his talents suited him to. A superiority that was as much Roosevelt's responsibility as it was Hitler's. I think you must mean Congress here. Lindbergh's comments in those days were that the German's were so superior to us and we were so hopelessly outclassed we could not possibly affect the outcome of a modern war in Europe so why bother. Actually it was such comments to the British "Cliveden" set that confirmed their appeasement policies. Lindbergh's comments about the prowess of German bombers created visions of London in ruins, but in fact the bombers then in service--the ones he had seen in Germany--had the range for Britain only without a bombload. Now, if he was the aeronautical genius he was claimed to be, he would have noticed this. Yet he reported otherwise. He was a dupe or a co-conspirator. He was right of course the US Army was not even in the top ten in size in the world. Bulgaria had a larger standing army. A single Luftflotte in 1940 had more aicraft than the entire US Army Air Corps. "Standing"? Try figure in the reserves and the National Guard into that--as well as America's industrial capacity, the wonder of the world in 1940. As for that Luftflotte, try figuring in the orders placed in 1940--more than the Luftwaffe posessed. Lindbergh was taken in many ways by such ruses as the only handful of a bomber type being flown from factory to factory and put back in the "production line" for him to examine all over again. Well, check out the big brain on Lindy. No wonder the AAF didn't want him back. Can't see them tricking someone like Doolittle like this. |
#14
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"codefy" wrote in message om... Some American hero. When Lindbergh died in Hawaii did he consider the people there with any more maturity than when he made his racist comments or did he just consider them his coolies ? If there's a Hell I'm sure Lindbergh is roasting there for his racism & Nazi sympathies. You have to wonder how Lindbergh's grandson deals with that nasty part of the legend that he's living off of. The majority of US citizens shared Charles Linderghs views. They wanted to avoid a war. There is coverage of the affair, "Lindburghs Des Moines Speech" in this article (70 page preface, the book is excellent): http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/Preface.htm They can't be called Anti-Semitic. When Lindburgh points out that some Jewish groups want to get the US into war he was telling the simple truth and he sympathizes with them. Also remember there was no 'holocaust' at this time and no 'holocaust industry' to raise consiciouncess of it. That didn't really exist till 1968. (I think a case can be made for arguing that without full blown US and UK involvement there never would have been a holocaust; the Nazis wanted to expell jews and break their social power in media, banking, finance, proffesions and worked at re-settling them in Palestine on the basis of the Balfur declaration or resettling in Madagascar etc. Highly assimilated jews could survive in the German military eg the first officer of the Bismark was jewish) Roosevelt had to work very hard to get the US into war against Germany. US destroyers escorting convoys were attacking German u-boats for almost 1 year while the Germans did not fire back and the rare incidents when u-boats did fire back were hyped as much as possible. By the time Pearl Harbour came about Hitler did not have a choice as he was locked into treaties with the Japanese. The Case for Pearl Harbor Revisionism http://theoccidentalquarterly.com/vo...arlharbor.html If you look at the state of the world today, the destruction of white people in Europe, and the US Lindbergh was absolutely correct. Another war would finnish the white race and it effectvely has. Some, like you (I suspect you are jewish?), might consider that a good thing. |
#15
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"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
Also remember there was no 'holocaust' at this time and no 'holocaust industry' to raise consiciouncess of it. That didn't really exist till 1968. (I think a case can be made for arguing that without full blown US and UK involvement there never would have been a holocaust; the Nazis wanted to expell jews and break their social power in media, banking, finance, proffesions and worked at re-settling them in Palestine on the basis of the Balfur declaration or resettling in Madagascar etc. Highly assimilated jews could survive in the German military eg the first officer of the Bismark was jewish) This is either monumental ignorance or an apology for the some of the worst monsters in history. -- http://www.delversdungeon.dragonsfoot.org Remove the X's in my email address to respond. "Damn you Silvey, and your endless fortunes." - Stephen Weir I hate furries. |
#16
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"JDupre5762" wrote in message
... "codefy" wrote Some American hero. When Lindbergh died in Hawaii did he consider the people there with any more maturity than when he made his racist comments or did he just consider them his coolies ? Lindbergh died in what 1973? There had been a lot of change in Americans views toward race by that time. I think above all Lindbergh was an American and while he probably echoed the prevalent racial and isolationist views of the 1920's and 1930's in his heyday, ultimately he would be swayed by performance and character. Seems to me that the essence of a Great Man is to be able to see beyond conventional wisdom and to examine persons and situations independently and reach one's own conclusions and where possible, act on them. When it came to race and to anti-Semitism, Mr. Lindbergh, although IIRC a minister's son, seems not to have conducted such a self-examination. One wonders whether Lindbergh ever was in touch with the so-called "average American" or whether he could recognize and relate to views other than those fashionable in the circles in which he habituated. By the end of his life he could not have been ignorant of the Tuskegee Airmen, Chappie James and Jesse Brown let alone Jackie Robinson. I can't prove it but I dare say he would have rather forgotten any racist remarks he might have made. Don't forget that after Pearl Harbor Lindbergh volunteered for active duty and was denied several times by Roosevelt who harbored a grudge over Lindbergh's comments on the superiority of the Luftwaffe in the late 1930's. A superiority that was as much Roosevelt's responsibility as it was Hitler's. Actually, FDR desired to harness the charisma and persuasiveness which Lindbergh possessed. Although FDR was certain, because of access to sources of his own, independent of Lindbergh's, that Nazi Germany's aircraft industry had not the prowess its propaganda claimed for it, and that the US armaments industry, and especially the aircraft portion thereof, could be resuscitated and could become strong enough in a rather short period of time so as to be able to interpose effectively against any expansionist ambitions held by the Axis, it is apparently not widely known that FDR, in the wake of Lindbergh's German tour, offered the latter the position of US aircraft acquisition czar, with wide delegation of authority in overseeing US R&D and contracting; he wanted Lindbergh "on the team" instead of jeering from the sidelines and counseling caution, if not defeatism. Lindbergh refused, believing that FDR merely wanted to remove an irritating naysayer and silence his independent voice of opposition. Whereas FDR's attitude was "We'll show them!", Lindbergh's attitude reflected a certain defeatism, "We'll never be able to match them, and let's not waste our energies trying to" attitude, and he appeared to be ready to accept a second-rate status for the US in world affairs, because intimidated by a Nazi/Axis show of force. As for his return to active duty, I submit that such a thing would have opened a can of worms. Would Lindbergh have been able to submit to military discipline? Would he have been able to contribute effectively in a system where his word or opinion was not necessarily considered tantamount to revelation? It is well to remember that no nation, including the US, forced the Nazis to re-arm in defiance of the WWI peace accords. FDR bore no responsibility for the collapse of the world-wide economy, other than to try to bring the US portion of it back to life. Lindbergh's comments in those days were that the German's were so superior to us and we were so hopelessly outclassed we could not possibly affect the outcome of a modern war in Europe so why bother. He was right of course the US Army was not even in the top ten in size in the world. Bulgaria had a larger standing army. A single Luftflotte in 1940 had more aircraft than the entire US Army Air Corps. Again, a Great Man has to have matching vision. In this case, he seemed determined to Think Small and seemed to lack an understanding of the latent manufacturing potential of the US, which was still badly scarred by the economic depression of the 1930's. As is well-known, once Gen Marshall's system was in place, the US began producing trained divisions at such a pace that, for example, WS Churchill initially could not comprehend how it was being done. Lindbergh could not envision a dramatic increase in the number of training a/c, pilots, transports, bombers, fighters, etc. which the US proved to be capable of producing in relatively short order. Lindbergh also appears to have missed out on the inter-allied information interchange which kick-started US electronics and airframe development efforts. Lindbergh was rightly called "Lucky Lindy" due to his successful solo Atlantic crossing. However, the intense and universal celebrity (and wealth) that became attached to him attendant thereto seems to have caused him, (as well as many a person in other fields), to wrongly consider himself expert at everything to which he turned his attention, and to believe that his every opinion was sacrosanct. But Lindbergh was not a trained engineer, as he demonstrated when the Nazis showed him around their alleged production facilities, and was clueless in assessing the current and potential industrial prowess of the US. Any of Gen Marshall's top staff could have told him that the US would expand its army many-fold in a brief time, if tasked to do so. Any of Adm Stark's top staff could have alerted him to the swelling size and strength of the US Navy, similarly. Lindbergh was guilty more of naivete' than Nazism. Lindbergh was taken in many ways by such ruses as the only handful of a bomber type being flown from factory to factory and put back in the "production line" for him to examine all over again. According to author "Ladislas Farago", intercepted German documents showed that the Germans considered Lindbergh to be akin to one of their propaganda agents who could be relied upon to cause their sentiments to become widely heard in the US. They were especially impressed by Lindbergh's expressed anti-Semitism. SNIP |
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"Bill Silvey" wrote in message om...
"The Enlightenment" wrote in message Also remember there was no 'holocaust' at this time and no 'holocaust industry' to raise consiciouncess of it. That didn't really exist till 1968. (I think a case can be made for arguing that without full blown US and UK involvement there never would have been a holocaust; the Nazis wanted to expell jews and break their social power in media, banking, finance, proffesions and worked at re-settling them in Palestine on the basis of the Balfur declaration or resettling in Madagascar etc. Highly assimilated jews could survive in the German military eg the first officer of the Bismark was jewish) This is either monumental ignorance or an apology for the some of the worst monsters in history. Try and take apart my points one by one. |
#18
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"Gooneybird" wrote in message ... "Bill Silvey" wrote in message m... "The Enlightenment" wrote in message Also remember there was no 'holocaust' at this time and no 'holocaust industry' to raise consiciouncess of it. That didn't really exist till 1968. (I think a case can be made for arguing that without full blown US and UK involvement there never would have been a holocaust; the Nazis wanted to expell jews and break their social power in media, banking, finance, proffesions and worked at re-settling them in Palestine on the basis of the Balfur declaration or resettling in Madagascar etc. Highly assimilated jews could survive in the German military eg the first officer of the Bismark was jewish) This is either monumental ignorance or an apology for the some of the worst monsters in history. Sounds to me like some Ozzie revisionist trying to deny that the Holocaust happened. I didn't say that, you did. Now why did you say that? Becuase you want to attack me not my points and you do so by applying the ready made sticker of holocuast denier and all that comes with it? The tactic of a raving coward. Holocuast Denier is the pejorative term for holocaust revisionist. Incidently deathes in Ausschwitz have fallen from 4 million to a plausible figure of between 500,000 - 800,000. That is official and the result of the release of ex soviet archives. Still a very substantial number. Now does that upset you? Now I did not even dispute numbers, I merely pointed out that the Germans tried expulsion first and why they tried it. I also pointed out that some Jews served with the German armed forces throughout the war, sometimes at high rank. I did this to point out that from the point of view of americans in the 1939 there were no major attrocities for Ameicans or Charles Lindburgh to focus on. People did know that millions could die however if a full blown war occured. Anyone old enough to remember seeing the newspaper pictures of emaciated, stripe-clad corpses stacked up like cordwood taken at Dachau with American troops standing around holding their noses so they wouldn't have to smell the stench of death knows that it happened. His comment about the Nazis wanting to expel Jews is not only laughable as well as wildly untrue, What percentage of German Jews escaped or were expelled? You will find that the majority did. Were there restellements in Palestine? Were the Poles and Germans expelling each others jews to each other? Did Poland invade czecholovakia just after Germany did? It seems you are reacting emotionally. but reflect his anti-Semitic biases and prejudices.....he capitalizes "Nazis", but "jews" only rate a lower case. Very trite Just as a WAG, he's probably some pimply-faced snotnose who wasn't even alive in those days, so how would he know about anything like that? Probably read all about it in one of those off-the-wall comic books. I'm not interested in your froting rabid name calling. It is clear however that you are violently attached to a particular opinion, this is why you are angry. The world is not as it should be. You view is not confirmed! George Z. Now read my points and if I made an incorrect statement then point it out. I simply do not believe in the orthodoxy. WW2 could have been avoided and less people would have died, including I think jews. I will not conduct debate with you further. |
#19
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#20
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I don't want to take sides in the main issue being disputed here, but
merely point out that the following remark is mistaken : Second, where is the money to pay for these tanks coming from? It's a depression, and tax revenues are in the toilet. Economists have understood since the mid-30s that the SOLUTION to depression is for government expenditures to EXCEED tax revenues. That creates employment, and thus income, and is the way out of the depression. Indeed, it was the spending on military build-up that brought the economy out of the Great Depression of the 1930s. (This is not to deny the role of other measures, such as monetary policy, in combatting depression.) vince norris |
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