Dumb Reg question

From the FAA website, part 61 FAQ (Word format). The FAA appears to
validate the scenario of both a safety pilot and hood-pilot both LOGGING
PIC.

In another question/response, the FAA is careful to emphasize not to
confuse "BEING" the PIC with "Logging PIC time).

QUESTION: I have two instrument students who wish to build time to
credit for the 50 hours of cross-country PIC flight time required for
the instrument and commercial certificates. They intend to fly
cross-country flights together, trading off legs with one flying as
safety pilot and the other manipulating the controls while under the
hood. I've counseled them that the safety pilot may log the time as PIC
only for the duration the manipulating pilot was under the hood and can
not count the flight as cross-country towards the instrument and
commercial rating requirements. Is it acceptable for the safety pilot
PIC flight time to count towards these specific cross-country requirements?

ANSWER: Ref. §§ 61.1(b)(3)(ii), § 61.51(e)(1)(iii); No. Your advice
is good. The pilot performing the takeoff and landing, i.e., conducting
flight in an appropriate aircraft per the definition of cross-country,
is the person acquiring the cross-country credit. A safety pilot can
not possibly log 100% of a flight since during visual operations
[takeoff, landing, etc.] the safety pilot services are not required.
The person that acts as safety pilot is no more than a passenger during
the VFR portions of the flight. There is no logic, common sense or
regulatory provision for a passenger, even a part time safety pilot, to
log cross-country flight time.
{Q&A-536}


RST Engineering wrote:

That is ABSOLUTELY false. Did you really READ 61.51(e) or did you simply
parrot somebody that you didn't check for accuracy?

61.51 lists a whole LOT of folks that can log PIC time. Your scenario isn't
among them. Suggest that you READ rather than QUOTE.


Jim




FAR 61.51(e) describes who can log PIC time. In the case of a
simulated instrument flight, both the pilot under-the-hood (sole
manipulator of the controls) and the safety pilot (required crewmember
on a flight requiring more than one pilot, such as a simulated
instrument flight) can log PIC at the same time.

Charles.
-N8385U

Maybe you should read them...

I've been reading them...and teaching them for over forty years. And you?



I guess you don't know what a Tomahawk is but what 6 exceptions do you
refer to?

I expect that I've got more PIC hours in Tomahawks than you have total.
Something on the order of 900 hours. You, sir?


please re read 61.51(e)(1)(i).. sole manipulator in an aircraft that he is
rated in.. may log PIC.. even if you think he is not ACTING PIC.. because
you, the PIC, is sleeping and think you are in charge.

Let's take this to another thread, one on point. You have the same
misguided interpretation that a lot of pilots have. It may be informative
to the group to clear this up once and for all.


generic "his",, get real..

Sexist pig. Get into this century.



any time you are flying with hands on stick, with or without the hood,
you are PIC,

Absolutely not true, as noted above.

re read 61.51(e)(1)(i) as noted above...

Reread the WHOLE of 61.51 and get a life....



Jim

It IS a nit-pick, and an important one.

The pilot under the hood can log PIC time and the safety pilot can log
second in command time.

The safety pilot can log PIC time and the pilot under the hood can log
second in command time.

They CANNOT BOTH LOG PIC time at the same time.

Jim




This is a NIT-pick but its an IMPORTANT one..

RST Engineering wrote:



If you are under the hood and have a rated pilot acting as a safety pilot,
then all you need is his name..


I'm sure my CFI-I Betty wouldn't appreciate that comment.


Jim



Jim... Instruction is logged with an endorsement by the instructor.
Safety Pilot just requires recording of the name.. (and that means it
can be in anyone's handwriting). Chapter and verse below. I am presuming
you are contesting the signing versus recording of the name, not the
gender issue you also seem to be alluding to.

Dave

61.51.g.3.ii

(3) For the purposes of logging instrument time to meet the recent
instrument experience requirements of §61.57(c) of this part, the
following information must be recorded in the person's logbook—

(i) The location and type of each instrument approach accomplished; and

(ii) The name of the safety pilot, if required.

61.51.H.2.i

(h) Logging training time. (1) A person may log training time when
that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an
aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.

(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:

(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and

RST Engineering wrote:

They CANNOT BOTH LOG PIC time at the same time.

under which regs? if you mean good ol' FAA, then
you are wrong;

--Sylvain

ps actually, I once was in a flight where three of
us did log PIC time *at the same time* and perfectly
legally: exercice to the readers: describe the situation :-)

"Sylvain" wrote in message
...
RST Engineering wrote:

They CANNOT BOTH LOG PIC time at the same time.

under which regs? if you mean good ol' FAA, then
you are wrong;


I don't think so, but entertain me.


Jim






ps actually, I once was in a flight where three of
us did log PIC time *at the same time* and perfectly
legally: exercice to the readers: describe the situation :-)

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
under which regs? if you mean good ol' FAA, then
you are wrong;

I don't think so, but entertain me.

Consider yourself entertained.

Two relevant excerpts from the Part 61 FAQ:

-------------------
QUESTION: In the December 1997 edition of 'AOPA PILOT,' specifically page
22, 'AOPA ACCESS,' the question was asked: 'If I am flying as a safety
pilot, can I log that time as pilot in command?' AOPA's answer is: 'Yes.
There had been talk during the rewrite process of changing this to specify
only second-in-command time, but the final rule left logable safety pilot
PIC time intact. Requirements remain being rated in category and class. You
are allowed to log safety pilot PIC time because your eyes are required for
aircraft safety and therefore you become a required crew member. The pilot
under the hood can also log PIC time as 'sole' manipulator of the controls.'
§61.51(f)(2) seems pretty clear about safety pilots logging SIC rather than
PIC time. What does AOPA know that we don't???

ANSWER: Yes, the time can be logged as PIC. Reference §61.51(e)(1)(ii): The
safety pilot, who meets the qualifications set forth in §91.109(b) may log
it as PIC time because §61.51(e)(1)(ii) states, in pertinent part, '. . .
the regulations under which the flight is conducted. Note, we say 'may' but
he 'may' prefer to log it as SIC time. Your understanding is probably based
on the preamble discussion on page 16250, middle column, of the Federal
Register (62 FR 16250; April 4, 1997). We would highly recommend that you
also read the preamble discussion on page 16250, first column, of the
Federal Register (62 FR 16250; April 4, 1997).

Reference §61.51(e)(1)(i): The other pilot manipulating the controls, and
who meets the qualifications set forth in §91.109(a)(2) and (b)(3)(ii) may
log it as PIC time because §61.51(e)(1)(i) states, in pertinent part, 'Is
the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is
rated;'
{Q&A-95}

QUESTION: Is it true that a qualified pilot can log pilot-in-command time
for all flight time during which he acts as a required safety pilot per 14
CFR §91.109?

ANSWER: Yes, the safety pilot can log the time as PIC time in accordance
with §61.51(e)(ii) which states '. . . regulations under which the flight is
conducted.'
{Q&A-88}
------------

Why there are dozens of folks falling over themselves to get you elected to
any EAA position is beyond me. Hostile and ill-informed, not a great
combination. Certainly not the kind of person I'd like to see in a position
of responsibility for an organization I cared about.

Pete

RST Engineering wrote:

"Sylvain" wrote in message
...

RST Engineering wrote:


They CANNOT BOTH LOG PIC time at the same time.

under which regs? if you mean good ol' FAA, then
you are wrong;



I don't think so, but entertain me.


Jim

§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational,
private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that
flight time during which that person—

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which
the pilot is rated or has privileges; --- HERE IS WHAT THE PILOT FLYING
LOGS

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is ACTING as pilot in command of
an aircraft on which MORE THAN ONE pilot is required under the type
certification of the aircraft or the REGULATIONS under which the flight
is conducted. ---- HERE IS WHAT THE SAFETY PILOT "MAY" LOG.



(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log
second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an
instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being
flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification
of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being
conducted. ---- HERE IS WHAT THE SAFETY PILOT LOGS IF HE IS NOT ACTING
AS PIC.

I'm not gonna get in a ****ing contest any further with ya. I asked
specifically about this when I got my ground instructor certs at the
FSDO and the FSDO was able to show me in the FAQ's where the safety
pilot AND the pilot-flying were able to both LOG PIC. Only ONE person
can BE the PIC. SEVERAL can log it at the same time.

Dave

"BTIZ" writes:

except for the fact that you referenced it wrong..

61.31(g) Additional training required for operating PRESSURIZED AIRCRAFT
capable of operating at high altitudes..

It is not a "high altitude" endorsement.. it is a Pressurized Aircraft
endorsement

Here's the relevant part of 61.31(g):

(g) Additional training required for operating pressurized
aircraft capable of operating at high altitudes. (1) Except as
provided in paragraph (g)(3) of this section, no person may act as
pilot in command of a pressurized aircraft (an aircraft that has a
service ceiling or maximum operating altitude, whichever is lower,
above 25,000 feet MSL), unless that person has received and logged
ground training from an authorized instructor and obtained an
endorsement in the person's logbook or training record from an
authorized instructor who certifies the person has satisfactorily
accomplished the ground training.

It looks to me like that parenthetical is definitional; it is
*defining* a "pressurized aircraft" as any aircraft that has a service
ceiling or maximum operating altitude above 25,000ft MSL.

This is a Federal regulation; having a "pressurized aircraft" defined
in a way that has nothing to do with controlling the pressure within
the aircraft body is about par for the course, isn't it?
--
David Dyer-Bennet, , http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/
RKBA: http://noguns-nomoney.com/ http://www.dd-b.net/carry/
Pics: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/ http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/
Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/

I did read it, and the folks at AOPA who make understanding this stuff
their job seem to agree. The pilots do have to decide that the safety
pilot is the actual PIC with responsibility for the flight, but with
that done, they can both log PIC time.

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/topics/sftyplt.html

Charles.
-N8385U

RST Engineering wrote:
That is ABSOLUTELY false. Did you really READ 61.51(e) or did you simply
parrot somebody that you didn't check for accuracy?

61.51 lists a whole LOT of folks that can log PIC time. Your scenario isn't
among them. Suggest that you READ rather than QUOTE.