Dumb Reg question

BTIZ wrote:

My remarks : The agreement of ACTING PIC and ACTUAL PIC should be made in
advance between the two pilots...

There is no such thing as ACTING and ACTUAL PIC.

There is exacting person who is pilot in command.

What you are confusing is that the a person who is NOT pilot in command
can log pilot in command time if they are the sole manipulator of the
controls of an aircraft for which they are rated.

Wrong, they can both log PIC. The safety pilot can log PIC if he also
serves as PIC because the FAA says safey piloting is an operation which
requires multiple crew members read 61.51(e). The flying pilot logs PIC
because he is on the controls. Please understand that LOGGING PIC is
***DIFFERENT** than SERVING as PIC.
You need to read some of the FAA pubs, including the Lych FAQ.

-Robert, CFI

RST, I fly out of Sacramento too as a CFI. I usually work with FSDO
inspectors Nancy and John. Who have you been talking to?? I think
you've gotten some bad direction from the person you've been working
with at the FSDO..

-Robert, CFI

The last time I asked the question was at a training session some time ago,
and the particular person (now retired) said that there was room for
argument on either side, but that HIS interpretation was as I stated. I
haven't had a need for an update on that interpretation until it came up in
this ng, so I'll have to believe what I believe.

I can certainly ask my principal inspector next time I'm in the office for
another interpretation, but it will be just exactly that ... one more
individual inspector's opinion.

Does anybody have a definitive link to an opinion out of the Chief Counsel's
office on the matter? THAT should serve as the standard for FSDOs across
the country. Absent such an opinion, we go on individual interpretations,
no matter how high up the individual's chair sits in the hierarchy.

Jim
CFI, A&G; CGI



"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
ups.com...
RST, I fly out of Sacramento too as a CFI. I usually work with FSDO
inspectors Nancy and John. Who have you been talking to?? I think
you've gotten some bad direction from the person you've been working
with at the FSDO..

-Robert, CFI

On Mon, 2 May 2005 13:01:47 -0700, "RST Engineering"
wrote in
::

I can certainly ask my principal inspector next time I'm in the office for
another interpretation, ...

Just to add a little fuel to the fire, also ask the inspector if
either the student flying the simulated instrument maneuvers and/or
the safety pilot need to have a current medical certificate. § 91.109
doesn't cover that issue.

The Lynch FAQ says the safety pilot must have a current medical since
he's serving as a required crew member. The Lynch FAQ is what most FSDO
inpsectors carry around in their briefcase.

From the FAA's web page...
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic..._instructors/=
index.cfm?docType=3Ddoc&docLink=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww %2Efaa%2Egov%2Favr%2Fafs%=
2Fafs800%2Fdocs%2Fpt61FAQ%2Edoc&docSize=3D2260&doc Name=3D14%20CFR%20Part%20=
61%20Frequently%20Asked%20%20Questions

(sorry, its a long link)

First, can a person who is not certified to serve as PIC log PIC...

QUESTION: Question about logging of pilot-in-command time. You asked
whether a pilot needs to have the appropriate 14 CFR =A7 61.31
endorsements before he or she can properly log pilot-in-command time
under 14 CFR =A7 61.51(e) when that pilot holds a private pilot
certificate with a single-engine land rating and is receiving training
in a single-engine land airplane that is also a complex or high
performance airplane. Can this person log the time he or she
manipulated the controls as pilot-in-command time.

ANSWER: Ref. =A7 61.51(e)(1)(i); =A7 61.51(e) governs the logging of
pilot-in-command time. This section provides, in pertinent part, that
a private pilot may log pilot-in-command flight time for that flight
time during which that person is the sole manipulator of the controls
of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated. (Emphasis added:
"aircraft for which the pilot is rated"). The term "rated," as
used under 14 CFR =A7 61.51(e), refers to the pilot holding the
appropriate aircraft ratings (category, class, and type, if a type
rating is required). These ratings are listed under =A7 61.5 and are
placed on the pilot certificate.

Therefore, based on the scenario given, a private pilot may log
pilot-in-command time, in a complex or high performance airplane, for
those portions of the flight when he or she is the sole manipulator of
the controls because the aircraft being operated is single-engine land
and the private pilot holds a single-engine land rating.


Safety pilot logging...

ANSWER: Ref. =A7 61.113(a) and =A7 61.51(e)(iii); Yes, the Private Pilot
who is serving as a safety pilot and is acting as the PIC may log the
time as PIC flight time. And yes, that Private Pilot may use that PIC
flight time for the furtherance of a pilot certificate and rating under
Part 61. And no, that Private Pilot is not ". . . . carrying
passengers or property for compensation or hire;" nor is that Private
Pilot acting as a pilot in command ". . . for compensation or hire, .
.. . ." when he serves as a safety pilot. In accordance with
=A791.109(b)(1), it permits a person who holds a Private Pilot
Certificate with a category and class rating appropriate to the
aircraft being flown to serve as a safety pilot.

Shorter link he http://babyurl.com/QYUUNt

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message oups.com...
From the FAA's web page...
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...20%20Questions

(sorry, its a long link)

First, can a person who is not certified to serve as PIC log PIC...

QUESTION: Question about logging of pilot-in-command time. You asked
whether a pilot needs to have the appropriate 14 CFR § 61.31
endorsements before he or she can properly log pilot-in-command time
under 14 CFR § 61.51(e) when that pilot holds a private pilot
certificate with a single-engine land rating and is receiving training
in a single-engine land airplane that is also a complex or high
performance airplane. Can this person log the time he or she
manipulated the controls as pilot-in-command time.

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.51(e)(1)(i); § 61.51(e) governs the logging of
pilot-in-command time. This section provides, in pertinent part, that
a private pilot may log pilot-in-command flight time for that flight
time during which that person is the sole manipulator of the controls
of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated. (Emphasis added:
"aircraft for which the pilot is rated"). The term "rated," as
used under 14 CFR § 61.51(e), refers to the pilot holding the
appropriate aircraft ratings (category, class, and type, if a type
rating is required). These ratings are listed under § 61.5 and are
placed on the pilot certificate.

Therefore, based on the scenario given, a private pilot may log
pilot-in-command time, in a complex or high performance airplane, for
those portions of the flight when he or she is the sole manipulator of
the controls because the aircraft being operated is single-engine land
and the private pilot holds a single-engine land rating.


Safety pilot logging...

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.113(a) and § 61.51(e)(iii); Yes, the Private Pilot
who is serving as a safety pilot and is acting as the PIC may log the
time as PIC flight time. And yes, that Private Pilot may use that PIC
flight time for the furtherance of a pilot certificate and rating under
Part 61. And no, that Private Pilot is not ". . . . carrying
passengers or property for compensation or hire;" nor is that Private
Pilot acting as a pilot in command ". . . for compensation or hire, .
.. . ." when he serves as a safety pilot. In accordance with
§91.109(b)(1), it permits a person who holds a Private Pilot
Certificate with a category and class rating appropriate to the
aircraft being flown to serve as a safety pilot.

When the Office of the Chief Counsel signs their John Henrietta to the
bottom of the Lynch FAQ, then it becomes the governing document. Until
then, it is the opinion (albeit a pretty good one) of a single person
writing the FAQ. And yes, I downloaded the whole damned thing and printed
it out.

I contend...there is as much argument on one side as the other, no matter
how the individuals within the FAA are reading the tea leaves today.

FAA inspectors can carry around as much as they wish in their briefcase.
Until OCC opines, the matter is open to interpretation. After that , it is
the courts that make the law.

Jim




"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
ups.com...
The Lynch FAQ says the safety pilot must have a current medical since
he's serving as a required crew member. The Lynch FAQ is what most FSDO
inpsectors carry around in their briefcase.

Well, when you DO, come back and entertain us with them. Until then,
opinions are like assholes and sex ... everybody has one, and most of them
smell.

Jim



However, there are Chief Council decisions based on these, I just don't
have access to them in front of me.