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IFR use of handheld GPS



 
 
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  #21  
Old May 4th 06, 04:14 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default IFR use of handheld GPS

Newps wrote:
wrote:
William L.Snow, PE wrote:


Does the FAA have a set of regs written for a sextant? They do for the GPS.


But do they have regs regarding handheld GPS units? There may be TSOs
and other stuff for panel mounts, but that has nothing to do with
handhelds. Just because both have the term "GPS" in the name doesn't
connect them in a regulatory sense. You might as well call your
handheld an "automatic sextant". Then is it okay to use while IFR? I
bet there are no regs for those.

Ads
  #22  
Old May 4th 06, 04:20 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default IFR use of handheld GPS

Nah, a real pilot would cross correlate the waypoint off of two VOR's,
then use the DG (that precesses mightily), set from the compass (that
swings a lot in the turbulence) to navigate to the said waypoint, so
when he gets back to the base he can give the neophytes next to the
water cooler a blow by blow account of the whole heroic deed......

  #24  
Old May 4th 06, 05:44 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default IFR use of handheld GPS

On Wed, 3 May 2006 19:55:06 -0400, "William L.Snow, PE"
wrote:

Simply said, ifr use of vfr gps is not in the spirit of the far's.


Is it or isn't it? Think about it for a minute.

You can file IFR accept an IFR direct clearance by simply flying
vectors, so it matters little what you have in the plane for equipment
as long as you have the equipment necessary to make any required
approache(s)

Let's say there is a 100 miles of rain between where I am now which is
CAVU and my destination is CAVU. I have enough gas to turn around and
come back home if need be and I have only the minimum required
instruments for legally fly in IMC.

I see the storm ahead, air file, ATC gives me a vector or vectors as
need be. I come out the other side of the storm and close the flight
plan although I have in the real world had them ask that I stay with
them until the destination is in sight and VFR.

This is strictly legal when in a RADAR environment.

Now say I have my trusty 296 with me. I still file with the same
equipment suffix as I would have used without the 296. I am legal in
every sense of the FARs and in addition I have a backup hand held GPS
which I can use for my position and course and ATC is happy to have me
do so. I do not need to tell them I have GPS. I can request direct
and they can tell me cleared direct or direct when able to where ever
with out a request from me. I can accept said "cleared direct", reply
"unable, or request vectors.

Now in real life I happen to have RNAV (not GPS). I have the
equipment go from point A to point B in the system be it direct, by
vectors, or airways which meets the intent of the FARs. That I choose
to do so by following my 296 is immaterial as I have all of the
equipment in the plane to meet the equipment suffix I used when
filing.

If the internal batteries in the 296 die, and I've forgotten the
lighter plug adapter, it is my responsibility to be able to properly
fly the clearance even if it is done by requesting vectors. However I
have a panel full of *stuff* that should enable me to do so without
having to request vectors if I have been paying attention and I keep
everything set up including the ADF to watch stations along the route.

The thing I've never figured out is whey do they bother with "enroute
certified GPS" when there is no need for enroute certified GPS UNLESS
this pertains specifically to panel mounted instruments.
You don't need enroute certified anything as long as you are in RADAR
contact and you can not get a direct clearance if you are not in RADAR
contact regardless of what ever certified equipment you have..

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
  #25  
Old May 4th 06, 11:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default IFR use of handheld GPS


wrote in message
ps.com...

I've seen other discussions get off topic and go on about handheld GPS
use under IFR. And people get all worked up about it. I know there is
a lot of history on this newsgroup, but I haven't followed most of it
(so don't lynch me, please).

It seems that a lot of pilots believe a handheld GPS shouldn't be used
while IFR. And a lot more believe that it can't be the "primary"
navigation method. Sometimes that makes sense, but other times it
doesn't (to me). So here are a few questions I have that work up to
GPS:

1) Can you use celestial navigation while IFR?


Sure. The USAF has for ages.



And does your sextant have to be "approved" in some way?


There is no such requirement in the FARs.



2) Can you use dead reckoning for IFR navigation? If so, can you use
your wrist watch as your "primary" timer? Or does it have to be an
"installed" clock? And to do dead reckoning calculations, can you use
a drugstore-bought calculator? An abacus? Or how about a handy "dead
reckoning computer" that calculates ground speed and track?


There is nothing in the FARs that prohibits any of that.



I can understand that a handheld GPS is not supposed to be used as a
substitute for VOR or DME or ADF (say for navigating along airways or
for shooting instrument approaches). But can you not use one for
flying off-airway routes without playing tricks (like pretending to
double-check position with VOR/DME or asking ATC for a vector and then
ignoring the heading they issue)?


Yes, you can. Many people insist it is illegal but none of them has been
able to find an FAR that supports that assertion. Many also insist it's a
dangerous practice, but none of them has been able to identify any hazard
induced by using a handheld GPS for enroute IFR navigation in US controlled
airspace.


  #26  
Old May 4th 06, 02:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default IFR use of handheld GPS


Since direct can only be given under radar control (IFR GPS or
otherwise) ....


I am not sure where everyone is getting this information. Maybe it is
a 'rule' but I have often been given direct routes when out of ATC
radar and, for a while, out of ATC communications. And I don't have a
panel GPS. I use the handheld. But I always get a vector before hand,
not for legality, but in case the GPS craps out I have some idea of
what direction to fly. Yes I could look at the GPS direction, but
hearing the vector and writing it down, just enforces it into my
memory.

And I monitor VOR's to double check the path the GPS is telling me.
And I use the two VOR's to double check that they are working properly.
What the heck else do you have to do in the clouds for three hours?
Once is a while I tune in the ADF to check it. Then I monitor
intersections with the two VOR's. I may even get two radials and
triangulate my position to see how close I get to what the GPS says I
am at. And during all this I am not falling asleep.

I have had the GPS signal get lost twice during IFR flights. This
lasted for about 20 minutes. One time was not a problem with the 'box'
as I had two handhelds and the second one came up with no satellites
also. Both events were over Nebraska. So don't believe that it can
not happen. I was glad to have been on an airway both times with the
VORs set to the previous and next stations.

Greg J.

  #27  
Old May 4th 06, 02:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default IFR use of handheld GPS

Robert M. Gary wrote:
If the handheld had failed, I could have navigated by map reading.



Since direct can only be given under radar control (IFR GPS or
otherwise) if you lost your handheld you could have just asked for
vectors. I used to note "VFR GPS on board" on my IFR flight plan. I no
longer need to, ATC seems to assume everyone can take direct now. The
/G just lets them know to offer you a GPS approach.

-Robert

You have to be real careful with those direct-to's in the intermountain
West, especially with a normally aspirated bird.
  #28  
Old May 4th 06, 02:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default IFR use of handheld GPS

Many people insist it is illegal but none of them has been
able to find an FAR that supports that assertion.


Many people also insist that as a private pilot, "holding out" is
illegal, but none of them have been able to find an FAR that supports
their assertion.

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #29  
Old May 4th 06, 04:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default IFR use of handheld GPS

gregscheetah wrote:
Since direct can only be given under radar control (IFR GPS or
otherwise) ....



I am not sure where everyone is getting this information. Maybe it is
a 'rule' but I have often been given direct routes when out of ATC
radar and, for a while, out of ATC communications.


The "rule" is that direct routes initiated by ATC are limited to the
service volume of VOR (or rarely, NDBs) and the controller can assure
that MIAs will not be violated.

When the pilot makes the request, though, let the buyer beware.
  #30  
Old May 4th 06, 06:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default IFR use of handheld GPS



Sam Spade wrote:


The "rule" is that direct routes initiated by ATC are limited to the
service volume of VOR (or rarely, NDBs) and the controller can assure
that MIAs will not be violated.

When the pilot makes the request, though, let the buyer beware.




It is irrelavant who makes the request, the rules are the same.
 




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