A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Instrument Flight Rules
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old January 3rd 07, 06:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Thomas Borchert
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,749
Default Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

Mxsmanic,

Why? Most people don't have a phobia of simulation, and for things
like instrument flight and ATC, simulation isn't different enough from
real life to matter for most of the major concepts of both.


Jeeze, not always the same again.

Your description of your "flight" would never, ever happen in the real
world (which, BTW, means that you statement about the differences
between sim and RL is complete, utter BS). Thus, if you really want
people to react in a sensible way, you need to provide the context,
which is simming. If you don't, people won't understand your post in the
least bit.

Since you have been made aware of this problem in your posts several
times, the only logical conclusion is that you are not interested in
sensible reactions. That's why people conclude you're a troll, not
someone asking for clarification.

--

Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Ads
  #22  
Old January 3rd 07, 06:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Mxsmanic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,169
Default Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

Thomas Borchert writes:

Your description of your "flight" would never, ever happen in the real
world (which, BTW, means that you statement about the differences
between sim and RL is complete, utter BS).


Which aspect of the flight was unlike the real world?

As I recall, I started at gate 35 at KLAX, was cleared to KLAS with
LOOP4 DAG KEPEC1 at FL290, left on 24L (which is right behind the
gate), and proceeded more or less uneventually to KLAS, with a few
minor modifications to my route from ATC along the way. I did have to
fight with the autopilot and FMS on the way in to KLAS, but only
because I'm not that experienced with them yet. I'm getting better.
In particular, I'm slowly figuring out how to change things en route
so that I can adapt to instructions from ATC, instead of being
compelled to let the FMS fly the entire route as originally entered.
As I get used to it, I like the FMS more than I did at first.

Thus, if you really want people to react in a sensible way, you need
to provide the context, which is simming.


Which part of the above doesn't happen in real life?

If you don't, people won't understand your post in the least bit.


They seem to have understood it without any difficulty.

Since you have been made aware of this problem in your posts several
times, the only logical conclusion is that you are not interested in
sensible reactions.


No. Another, more probable possibility is that it's not a problem to
begin with, except in your own perception, which is not universal.

That's why people conclude you're a troll, not someone asking
for clarification.


Virtually no one has reached this conclusion, apart from a vocal
minority that finds me irritating. It's unfortunate that I end up
explaining this to that minority in almost every thread in which I
participate. If they would just stick to the topic, things would go
much better for all.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  #23  
Old January 3rd 07, 06:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Pixel Dent
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 30
Default Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

Pixel Dent writes:

I think I read this section before; this paragraph sounds familiar. I
always get instructions to "maintain," though. What's the phraseology
when I get a block of altitudes? Or does it even happen with
frequency in real life? How do I request it (or do I even need to
request it)?


In general (i.e. I'm sure someone will come up with an exception), you
won't get things like cruise clearances, VFR on Top Clearances, or block
altitudes unless you specifically ask for them. 99% of the time ATC
gives you an altitude and expects you to stay there until they tell you
otherwise.

That doesn't mean you can't ask for a descent when your FMS tells you it
wants to start down, but there are a number of reasons you may not get
it. There may be conflicting traffic below you or the controlling
authority for the area you are in may have letters of agreement with the
surrounding areas that specify what altitude flights heading in various
directions or to various destinations must be at. In addition sometimes
the controller you're talking to doesn't control the altitude you want
to head down to. For a given ground position there may be three
different controllers handling different altitude blocks and your guy
may not have time to coordinate or even be allowed to descend flights
into the area below you.
  #24  
Old January 3rd 07, 07:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Gary[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 60
Default Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC


Mxsmanic wrote:
Which aspect of the flight was unlike the real world?


You never left the ground?

  #25  
Old January 3rd 07, 07:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mxsmanic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,169
Default Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

Pixel Dent writes:

That doesn't mean you can't ask for a descent when your FMS tells you it
wants to start down, but there are a number of reasons you may not get
it. There may be conflicting traffic below you or the controlling
authority for the area you are in may have letters of agreement with the
surrounding areas that specify what altitude flights heading in various
directions or to various destinations must be at. In addition sometimes
the controller you're talking to doesn't control the altitude you want
to head down to. For a given ground position there may be three
different controllers handling different altitude blocks and your guy
may not have time to coordinate or even be allowed to descend flights
into the area below you.


OK. But this is a bit worrisome in that the FMC apparently already
calculates the optimal descent. If I can't start down in time, I may
not be able to make the other altitudes in the route without holding
or some other diversion to provide more time to descend. For some
reason, the FMC seems to be optimistic about how quickly it can force
the aircraft down. I have to deploy spoilers a lot, and that's even
when the descent starts on time.

Anyway, so I can just say "request descent" when I'm ready to start
down?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  #26  
Old January 3rd 07, 07:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Mxsmanic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,169
Default Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

Gary writes:

You never left the ground?


Is that good or bad? What does it have to do with ATC?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  #27  
Old January 3rd 07, 08:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Pixel Dent
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 30
Default Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

OK. But this is a bit worrisome in that the FMC apparently already
calculates the optimal descent. If I can't start down in time, I may
not be able to make the other altitudes in the route without holding
or some other diversion to provide more time to descend. For some
reason, the FMC seems to be optimistic about how quickly it can force
the aircraft down. I have to deploy spoilers a lot, and that's even
when the descent starts on time.


Well, I don't fly airliners. I fly a single engine prop that rarely sees
anything above 9000'. That being said I fly a lot of IFR and have never
heard a pilot say "Center, my FMC says I need to start descending now."
Somehow in real life they manage it.

If you're having trouble descending fast enough in the Sim maybe you
just need to slow down the plane to give you more time.

Anyway, so I can just say "request descent" when I'm ready to start
down?


Sure. But even if it's approved that doesn't mean you can just descend
at will to the airport. What you're likely to get is something like
"AB123, descending and maintain one two thousand expect lower in 20
miles."

In general what happens is you gradually get "stepped down" in altitude
via a series of descents as you get closer to the airport until the
final approach controller gets you down to whatever altitude is needed
to start your approach (usually something like 2000' AGL). Once you're
given each new altitude assignment the controller really wants you to
hurry down to the next altitude and level off there so you get out of
the way of other traffic. At times you'll even get requests like "AB123
I need best speed down to one five thousand, I have conflicting
traffic."

To really get a feel of how this all works I'd suggest you go to one of
those live atc sites and listen to an approach controller. You'd be
amazed how much you can learn listening to one for a half hour. At first
it will seem chaotic and then you'll realize there are patterns to what
he's doing with the planes.
  #28  
Old January 3rd 07, 08:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Gus Cabre
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC


"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...

Anyway, so I can just say "request descent" when I'm ready to start
down?


Affirm, exactly that. And if you are not going to collide against another
aircraft or terrain, they usually clear you to descend.

Gus Cabre
EGYC


  #29  
Old January 3rd 07, 08:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Gus Cabre
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC


"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
I live in Europe, so I don't really have those options. I try to read
things on paper and online, and I fly in simulation, and I fly in
network simulation (VATSIM) to practice ATC and to have some level of
unpredictability in the simulation.


Where in Europe do you live? Depending where you are, I could put you in
contact with local experimental aircraft associations and/or simmers who are
well versed in simulated flying.


Gus
EGYC


  #30  
Old January 3rd 07, 08:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mxsmanic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,169
Default Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

Gus Cabre writes:

Affirm, exactly that. And if you are not going to collide against another
aircraft or terrain, they usually clear you to descend.


I'll try that, then. Is there any difference between "request
descent" and "request lower"? Can I be more specific, like "request
descent to cross BUBBL at 12000" (if the FMC is trying to do that)?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.