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ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 24th 07, 01:21 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Roy Smith
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Posts: 478
Default ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight

In article , Mitty
wrote:

On 2/23/2007 9:01 AM, Robert Chambers wrote the following:
I gotta wonder if the approach
controller told the local controller that there was an emergency
declared, it didn't appear on the video but my have been edited out.


and what was AA squawking? A 7700 should have made sure everyone knew.


If you've already told the controller you have an emergency, squawking 7700
doesn't add anything to the situation. The 7700 stuff is for when you're
out of radio contact.
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  #12  
Old February 24th 07, 01:55 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,325
Default ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight

tscottme wrote:

Yeah, that is what struck me about the video, the approach controller didn't
mention "emergency" in the phone call to tower controller. It that indeed
happened, I wouldn't put much blame on ATC, except the approach controller.
I'm thinking that runway assignment and suitable vectors would have been in
use befor AA crew ever talked to tower freq.

I first expected the video to show yet another "ahhhh approach we got us
here this little ol' situation and we're just wondering how ol' 17 center is
lookin..." that some pilots seem determined to use when they have an
emerigency. I understand the psychological need to keep a lid on things,
and understand denial as well as the next guy, but many pilots need to
better understand that declaring an emergency should come more easily than
they often assume.


You are absolutely correct. Airline pilots, as a group, tend to be the
worst about this because of subtle company intimidation.

ATC could have very well taken this as a declaration of minimum fuel,
which is NOT a declaration of emergency.

The magig words are, "American 123 is declaring an emergency." ATC
response, "American 123 what is the nature of your emergency?" And,
then the trolly is on the track.

If ATC fails to respond to that properly and gives the run around, the
pilot should then be resourceful to get them to understand they will
give him what he needs. "Mayday, mayday, mayday" is one option that
hopefully should not be needed.
  #13  
Old February 24th 07, 02:12 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mitty
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Posts: 72
Default ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight

On 2/23/2007 6:21 PM, Roy Smith wrote the following:

If you've already told the controller you have an emergency, squawking 7700
doesn't add anything to the situation. The 7700 stuff is for when you're
out of radio contact.


Au contraire. With a 7700 squawk then if the emergency situation wasn't
mentioned in the handoff (which it possibly wasn't) then the next controller
would still have known something was seriously wrong.

(Now possibly if AA had squawked 7700 he would have been asked to switch off
that code at some point, but we don't even know from the video whether he tried it.)
  #14  
Old February 24th 07, 02:14 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mxsmanic
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Posts: 9,169
Default ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight

Sam Spade writes:

If ATC fails to respond to that properly and gives the run around, the
pilot should then be resourceful to get them to understand they will
give him what he needs. "Mayday, mayday, mayday" is one option that
hopefully should not be needed.


Fortunately, in practice, ATC will bend over backwards to accommodate any
aircraft with an emergency, and so will other pilots.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  #15  
Old February 24th 07, 02:25 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Robert Chambers
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Posts: 81
Default ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight

He declared an emergency, but somewhere along the line the ball got
dropped. The pilot shouldn't have to plead his case and hope for the
best, he's got an emergent condition to deal with and the life of his
crew and passengers to worry about.

When he got stick from the local controller he should have repeated his
emergency declaration and done whatever he needed to do to meet that
situation. A tower controller can clear the airspace of aircraft fairly
expediently if they want to.

If he had flamed out on a wide downwind and not made it back to the
runway he'd have been crucified for "not doing everything in his power
to deal with the emergency"

If I were the pilot, and AA, I'd be plenty ****ed at the controller, and
from what else is coming out, the FAA supervisor who makes the decisions
that the local controller is not allowed to.

Hopefully this won't happen again eh?



Mitty wrote:
On 2/23/2007 6:21 PM, Roy Smith wrote the following:

If you've already told the controller you have an emergency, squawking
7700 doesn't add anything to the situation. The 7700 stuff is for
when you're out of radio contact.



Au contraire. With a 7700 squawk then if the emergency situation wasn't
mentioned in the handoff (which it possibly wasn't) then the next
controller would still have known something was seriously wrong.

(Now possibly if AA had squawked 7700 he would have been asked to switch
off that code at some point, but we don't even know from the video
whether he tried it.)

  #16  
Old February 24th 07, 03:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,325
Default ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight

Mxsmanic wrote:
Sam Spade writes:


If ATC fails to respond to that properly and gives the run around, the
pilot should then be resourceful to get them to understand they will
give him what he needs. "Mayday, mayday, mayday" is one option that
hopefully should not be needed.



Fortunately, in practice, ATC will bend over backwards to accommodate any
aircraft with an emergency, and so will other pilots.

No **** Dick Tracy.
  #17  
Old February 24th 07, 03:37 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mitty
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Posts: 72
Default ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight

All true. BTW, the handoff on the video is between Center and Approach. Center
told the pilot that he was going to request 17C from Approach and that's what he
did. Apparently without mentioning the emergency.

On 2/23/2007 7:25 PM, Robert Chambers wrote the following:
He declared an emergency, but somewhere along the line the ball got
dropped. The pilot shouldn't have to plead his case and hope for the
best, he's got an emergent condition to deal with and the life of his
crew and passengers to worry about.

When he got stick from the local controller he should have repeated his
emergency declaration and done whatever he needed to do to meet that
situation. A tower controller can clear the airspace of aircraft fairly
expediently if they want to.

If he had flamed out on a wide downwind and not made it back to the
runway he'd have been crucified for "not doing everything in his power
to deal with the emergency"

If I were the pilot, and AA, I'd be plenty ****ed at the controller, and
from what else is coming out, the FAA supervisor who makes the decisions
that the local controller is not allowed to.

Hopefully this won't happen again eh?



Mitty wrote:
On 2/23/2007 6:21 PM, Roy Smith wrote the following:

If you've already told the controller you have an emergency,
squawking 7700 doesn't add anything to the situation. The 7700 stuff
is for when you're out of radio contact.



Au contraire. With a 7700 squawk then if the emergency situation
wasn't mentioned in the handoff (which it possibly wasn't) then the
next controller would still have known something was seriously wrong.

(Now possibly if AA had squawked 7700 he would have been asked to
switch off that code at some point, but we don't even know from the
video whether he tried it.)

  #18  
Old February 24th 07, 03:58 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Matt Whiting
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Posts: 2,232
Default ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight

C J Campbell wrote:

On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 05:41:03 -0800, Sam Spade wrote
(in article ):


http://www.kvue.com/sharedcontent/Vi...dId=122817&cat


Id=104



It appears somebody forgot what pilot in command means.


Actually, at least two people forgot.

Matt
  #19  
Old February 24th 07, 05:23 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Roger[_4_]
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Posts: 677
Default ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight

On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 05:41:03 -0800, Sam Spade
wrote:

http://www.kvue.com/sharedcontent/Vi...2817&catId=104


Doesn't that give you a warm fuzzy feeling?


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
  #20  
Old February 24th 07, 02:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,325
Default ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight

Roger wrote:
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 05:41:03 -0800, Sam Spade
wrote:


http://www.kvue.com/sharedcontent/Vi...2817&catId=104



Doesn't that give you a warm fuzzy feeling?


Not exactly.
 




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