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#11
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Lowest Cost GPS IFR system?
On 11/18/05 4:28 PM, in article , "tom
pettit peakorg" tompetatdot wrote: I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the lowest cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for IFR flying? I looked through the last six months of this newsgroup, but didn't see a FAQ or the answer to the above, so I hope it won't be something that was just hashed out. thanks, tom pettit A tuna sandwich. ) -- Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino Cartoons with a Touch of Magic http://www.wizardofdraws.com More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic http://www.cartoonclipart.com |
#12
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Lowest Cost GPS IFR system?
On 11/18/2005 3:43 PM, tom pettit tompetatpeak wrote:
I don't currently have any navigation equipment. I was hoping that a single, certified, gps unit could be used as primary, with an uncertified unit as back up. I was hoping I didn't need anything else. Reading the FARS it isn't very specific, or more likely, I just don't know enough about this stuff yet. thanks, tom Well, start with FAR 91.205. Specifically, 91.205 (d), and 91.205 (d) (2), where it state: "...navigational equipment appropriate to the ground facilities to be used". Then, have a look at the AIM, in the section on Navigational Aids (section 1), specifically, 1-1-19 (d) (1), which talks about Authorization to conduct any GPS operation under IFR, and later it talks about the requirements for alternate navigation equipment. Basically, what this all boils down to, is this: If you have a IFR-certified GPS system (TSO-129 certified), like the Garmin GNS 430, you can use it for IFR operations, but the plane needs to be equipped with the typical IFR navigation radios anyway. There are some exceptions, but this should get you thinking in the right direction. I would expect that the GPS systems that can be used without any other nav equipment on board would be more expensive than a TSO-129 system + standard nav gear anyway. I hope this helps, "Mark Hansen" wrote in message ... On 11/18/2005 13:28, tom pettit tompetatpeak wrote: I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the lowest cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for IFR flying? I looked through the last six months of this newsgroup, but didn't see a FAQ or the answer to the above, so I hope it won't be something that was just hashed out. thanks, tom pettit Keep in mind that it takes a specific unit (a TSO one forty something rather than the TSO 129... I'm not sure I have those number correct) for the GPS unit to be used as the sole means of IFR navigation. I mention this, because you said your plane is not currently IFR capable. In order to use one of the TSO 129 certified GPS units for IFR flight, the plane must still have the navigation equipment on board for the ground based navigation aids along the route of flight. Does any of this apply to you? If not, sorry if I misunderstood your situation. -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane Sacramento, CA -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane Sacramento, CA |
#13
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Lowest Cost GPS IFR system?
Robert M. Gary wrote: Since the bulk of the cost is installation the actual GPS unit you select will not have a dramatic effect on end price. A GNS430 is about $11,000 installed here. Any other GPS is + or - $1000 or so. Not necessarily. The GX55 I had in my 182 and now in the Bonanza costs nothing to install if you replaced a loran in the process and the loran antenna was on top of the fuselage. The expense will be in getting it legal for IFR. An terminal/enroute only box costs far less to get legal than an approach box. |
#14
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Lowest Cost GPS IFR system?
Tom,
Used Bendix King, Apollo, Or even Northstar if you can find it. Like others have said the cost for installation is significant. I installed a KLN-90B 10 years ago. At the time it had the most bells and whistles out there and was the easiest to use. It was also the most expensive. By today's standards it is dog meat. It has over 1000 hours on it without a problem. Solid, reliable. You will also need a display for annunciation's and a deviation indicator. I chose an HSI switched between NAV 1 and the GPS. That lasted for 9 years and then I replaced it with and updated one. Michelle tom pettit tompetatpeak wrote: I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the lowest cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for IFR flying? I looked through the last six months of this newsgroup, but didn't see a FAQ or the answer to the above, so I hope it won't be something that was just hashed out. thanks, tom pettit |
#15
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Lowest Cost GPS IFR system?
So how come I can't just use the gps alone? It seems like it is much more
flexible, and then I wouldn't be as dependent on what ground based stuff was available. tom Basically, what this all boils down to, is this: If you have a IFR-certified GPS system (TSO-129 certified), like the Garmin GNS 430, you can use it for IFR operations, but the plane needs to be equipped with the typical IFR navigation radios anyway. |
#16
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Lowest Cost GPS IFR system?
Because a GPS failure or outage can affect an entire REGION, while if a
single ground based navaid goes on the fritz, other stuff nearby will likely still work. Truth is, right now, the best approach minimums are with ground based ILS equipment. Unless you have baro-VNAV capability (which is not in the cheaper GPS equipment) the GPS approach may leave you in the clouds while the "antiquated" precision approach equipment can get you to 200 feet and a mile. Get some instrument training.. not the whole rating.. but some.. and see what is out there. (I am presuming you dont have one, but that is just a hunch) Also, if you dont have a rating yet, and plan to train in your own plane, you will need to be equipped for the checkride to perform 1 type of precision approach and 2 types of non-precision approaches (unless things have changed and I missed the memo). Having a "cheap ifr GPS" may not even have approach capability. Those that currently do are likely only LNAV (no glideslope, thus non-precision approach). Unless you have a Precision Approach Radar site, or a VNAV (baro aided or WAAS) you will need an ILS to meet the checkride requirements in that plane Dave tom pettit peak wrote: So how come I can't just use the gps alone? It seems like it is much more flexible, and then I wouldn't be as dependent on what ground based stuff was available. tom Basically, what this all boils down to, is this: If you have a IFR-certified GPS system (TSO-129 certified), like the Garmin GNS 430, you can use it for IFR operations, but the plane needs to be equipped with the typical IFR navigation radios anyway. |
#17
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[quote=tom pettit]So how come I can't just use the gps alone? It seems like it is much more
flexible, and then I wouldn't be as dependent on what ground based stuff was available. tom ------------------------- you can do that - but forget about saving money. you would need the garmin 480 GPS which can be used as a sole-means-of-navigation device. be ready to fork out at least $15,000 by the time it's installed with all the required hardware and config though. as per others on this thread, i question the wisdom of relying only on a GPS - for example, last time as i passed through richmond (KRIC) a notam said GPS signal may or may not be adequate for navigation. and just like the NOTAM said, we got a RAIM alert just before passing the FAF. another time in albukerque, we were on final descent, navigating by GPS at night when the unit went dead (welll, not dead, but it gave a message of "no signal" or something similar). turns out there were some military exercises going on in the area that included jamming the GPS signal. that final leg made for some interesting scrambling in the cockpit looking for maps, beacons and frequencies to navigate "a la VHF" before we sailed past where we were going... :-) francois |
#18
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Lowest Cost GPS IFR system?
"tom pettit" tompetatpeakdotorg wrote:
So how come I can't just use the gps alone? It seems like it is much more flexible, and then I wouldn't be as dependent on what ground based stuff was available. tom Your alternate must have a non-GPS approach (unless you use WAAS). VORs and ILS will be here forever. Ron Lee |
#19
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Lowest Cost GPS IFR system?
The problem with the less expensive unit is that they require more
external hardware to install. The more expensive units (GNS530, etc) are "all in one" IFR units. WIth the GX55 you need to install a remote head, a remote signal light etc. When you're paying $120/hr for avionics labor, it gets expensive real quick, |
#20
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Lowest Cost GPS IFR system?
While there are numerous used boxes out there at low prices, you have to
consider that the installation is a big part of the total cost. Another consideration is that the newer systems have more intuitive operating logic. The newer systems (430/530/480) all incorporate com and VLOC/GS. The older units required more wiring and usually a switch/annunciator box which drives up the cost. The new integrated avionics are also lighter. I removed 11lb by installing a 530/300XL instead of a 300XL/155 with all its switching boxes and VLOC converter strung together with miles of wire. . I did the avionics installation myself on my Helio. A picture of the Helio panel is on Jay Honecks site http://alexisparkinn.com/photogaller...295H_Panel.jpg. Before starting, you need to be sure that someone will sign off the installation when you are done! It took a while because I was always waiting for more of some wire or connector but it worked perfectly from the beginning. The tools are often availible on ebay. Mike MU-2 "tom pettit peak org" tompetatdot wrote in message ... I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the lowest cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for IFR flying? I looked through the last six months of this newsgroup, but didn't see a FAQ or the answer to the above, so I hope it won't be something that was just hashed out. thanks, tom pettit |
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