Did I violate an FAR?

Sam Spade wrote in
:

Newps wrote:


Sam Spade wrote:



No, the word "practice" muddys the waters.

I am thinking in terms of a non-training flight that shows up in the
LA Basin on top of a bunch of unforecasted stratus. I am at 8,500
feet east of Ontario. I call SoCal and request an ILS into Ontario
and tell the controller I am VFR at 8,500. He identifies me, gives
me a squawk, then says, 34 Charlie, maintain heading 260, descent to
and maintain 6,000 for an ILS to 26R."


You're still VFR.

What would have to be different to make me IFR? Could you cite a
reference?

Question to you was what was your clearance limit? No clearance limit,
no IFR clearance.

You don't say you were cleared for the ILS approach above. You were only
given directions to descent and maintain 6000..... as written above. I
don't *think* you ever mention the word cleared.

Allen

wrote:

Sam Spade wrote:

PilotWeb.org wrote:


If ATC uses the term "Cleared for approach" and/or gave you a clearance
limit, using the term "Cleared" then yes, you were operating under IFR.
The actual term IFR isn't usually used on the radio much, (they rarely
say anything like "Cleared IFR...") If you were "cleared for approach"
then you violated the regulations for operating under IFR without the
appropriate rating and without currency.

That is not what triggers IFR.

In my hypothetical I am on top of stratus 15 miles east of Podunck
Airport (which has a TRACON). I call in, "Poduck Approach, Baron 1234C
is at 8,500, VFR, over ACMEE intersection. Requst an ILS approach to
Runway 26."

"Baron 34C, radar contact over ACMEE, fly heading 270 for vectors to the
Podunck 26 ILS. Descent to and maintain 6,000."

Then, there could follow several altitude and vector heading changes
while I am IMC.

Finally, once the controller satisfies the vector-to-final requirements
of 7110.65P, only then will he say "Cleared for approach."


But "cleared for approach" is no more an IFR clearance than "cleared
for takeoff." Neither is "fly heading 270" an IFR clearance.

The best AIM reference I can get you is in 4-3-21: "If pilots wish to
proceed in accordance with instrument flight rules, they must
specifically request and obtain, an IFR clearance." So you would have
to say something like "Request an IFR clearance to Podunk airport via
the ILS runway 26."

But, that is a section dealing with practice approaches.

Just requesting the ILS is ambiguous at best. You might get away with
it if Podunk airport is IFR, but if the stratus stops short of the
airport and the airport is VFR, then the controller may assume you want
to fly the ILS while under VFR.

Then, the pilot should call FSS first, and file a full route IFR flight
plan. That is what the letter of the regulation requires, excepting
only the published tower-to-tower routes.

Being practical, Pop ups have been used for eons in places like the LA
Basin, and the controllers are fully aware when there is a solid stratus
overcast.

He identifies me, gives me a squawk, then says, 34 Charlie, maintain heading 260, descent to and maintain 6,000 for an ILS to 26R."



You're still VFR.


What would have to be different to make me IFR?

"Cleared present position to the Ontario airport..."

I don't have a reference. I was in NorCal VFR and needed an ILS into
Santa Rosa, I got radar contact, a heading, and an indication that they
will work me into the system. I got several more vectors in
anticipation of the clearance, the controller saying he'll get me a
"hard IFR altitude" shortly. Later on, when he got me into the system
he said something like "You're IFR now".

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Sam Spade wrote:
Newps wrote:



Sam Spade wrote:



No, the word "practice" muddys the waters.

I am thinking in terms of a non-training flight that shows up in the
LA Basin on top of a bunch of unforecasted stratus. I am at 8,500
feet east of Ontario. I call SoCal and request an ILS into Ontario
and tell the controller I am VFR at 8,500. He identifies me, gives me
a squawk, then says, 34 Charlie, maintain heading 260, descent to and
maintain 6,000 for an ILS to 26R."



You're still VFR.


What would have to be different to make me IFR? Could you cite a
reference?


You call up and say you are VFR at 8500 and request an ILS into Ontario.
Nothing so far suggests you even want to be IFR. Had you said you
were VFR on top of an overcast and would like a local IFR clearance to
get down then it would have been clear. The controller would have
responded with a clearance to Ontario as per the .65 4-2-1.

http://www.faa.gov/ATPubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0402.html

Newps wrote:



You call up and say you are VFR at 8500 and request an ILS into Ontario.
Nothing so far suggests you even want to be IFR. Had you said you
were VFR on top of an overcast and would like a local IFR clearance to
get down then it would have been clear. The controller would have
responded with a clearance to Ontario as per the .65 4-2-1.

http://www.faa.gov/ATPubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0402.html

I guess it boils down to whether "fly heading 260 for vectors to the
Chino Runway 26 ILS, descent to and maintain 6,000" contains the
component of a clearance limit."

I think it does.

You say it doesn't.

Sounds like a subject ripe for some ATPAC discussion and clear AIM material.

In article ,
Sam Spade wrote:

Newps wrote:



You call up and say you are VFR at 8500 and request an ILS into Ontario.
Nothing so far suggests you even want to be IFR. Had you said you
were VFR on top of an overcast and would like a local IFR clearance to
get down then it would have been clear. The controller would have
responded with a clearance to Ontario as per the .65 4-2-1.

http://www.faa.gov/ATPubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0402.html

I guess it boils down to whether "fly heading 260 for vectors to the
Chino Runway 26 ILS, descent to and maintain 6,000" contains the
component of a clearance limit."

I think it does.

You say it doesn't.

Sounds like a subject ripe for some ATPAC discussion and clear AIM material.

I'm having a really hard time seeing a clearance limit in your example.
What do you think the clearance limit is in it?

Hamish

Sam Spade wrote:

Newps wrote:




You call up and say you are VFR at 8500 and request an ILS into
Ontario. Nothing so far suggests you even want to be IFR. Had you
said you were VFR on top of an overcast and would like a local IFR
clearance to get down then it would have been clear. The controller
would have responded with a clearance to Ontario as per the .65 4-2-1.

http://www.faa.gov/ATPubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0402.html


I guess it boils down to whether "fly heading 260 for vectors to the
Chino Runway 26 ILS, descent to and maintain 6,000" contains the
component of a clearance limit."


ATC will routinely give those types of vectors and altitudes to fit you
into the flow. Any way you slice you have to hear "Cleared to the
Ontairo airport via radar vectors, descend and maintain 6000, squawk 1234."

Newps wrote:



You busted the regs when you went in the clouds.



I just got off the phone with a terminal guy who is about as sharp as
they come. He stated, as you did, that an airport clearance limit is
required for a pop-up to become IFR.

He also added that a regulation bust in the context of this thread
wouldn't happen on his watch because, if the pilot did not specifically
request IFR handling, nor did he request a practice approach, nor did he
request VFR, he (the controller I spoke with) would clarify the request
before he issued *any* clearance.

In article ,
Sam Spade wrote:

Newps wrote:



You busted the regs when you went in the clouds.



I just got off the phone with a terminal guy who is about as sharp as
they come. He stated, as you did, that an airport clearance limit is
required for a pop-up to become IFR.

I'll go along with the "clearance limit" part, but I don't know about the
"airport" bit. I've certainly gotten pop-ups to climb or descend through a
cloud layer, "Cleared to the XYZ VOR".

I'll go along with the "clearance limit" part, but I don't know about the
"airport" bit. I've certainly gotten pop-ups to climb or descend through a
cloud layer, "Cleared to the XYZ VOR".

You are correct. However in most cases it is very good to have an
airport be a clearance limit.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.