Australia tries to rewrite history of Vietnam War

"Evan Brennan" wrote in message
m...
modeled after the SAS is
easy to discredit..." (April 23, 2002).

Good lord, Evan gets caught lying again!

Who'd a thunk it!

and he seemed so credible....



.....As L'acrobat loses his daily battle with logic (and written
English apparently) he simply repeats himself like a Xerox machine
after a lightning strike. ; )

Oh Evan, given your constant record of untruths how can we believe that you
even think the above is true?

All you are is an amusement, slapping you down is fun rather like whack a
mole with cretins.

"Evan Brennan" wrote in message


"The Aussies taught us a lot about small unit ops"


For once I agree with you. But then again the 173d Airborne was green
in 1965 with no experience in combat, let alone in jungle warfare.
There was no Vietnam recondo schools in 1965. They did too much
shooting since they were not familiar with the sounds of the jungle
and often shot at various animals by mistake. They also made too much
noise, built too many fires, and left garbage laying around outside
of the firebases.

But they learned and improved whereas Australia did not improve much
at all, save for the SAS since they embraced US style airmobility.

The very low number of kills claimed by Oz infantry speaks louder
than your lame attempts at cooking up a cover story.


Oh poor Evan, a moment ago you were claiming -

"December 1965-September 1966. Since the Australian 1 RAR was
hardly up to the task, the US 173d Airborne Brigade committed two
battalions to operate against the VC and infrastructure in Phuoc
Tuy province, and to clear areas for an Australian base at Nui Dat."

Now it turns out that you are forced to admit that they didn't teach the
Aussies how to do it, your back flip with half pike is amusing to say the
least, the follow on 'but they learned and the Aussies didn't' is laughable
as an attempt to retreat from your earlier gaffe.



6. July 1970 to April 1971. In addition to responsibilities in Long
Khanh and Bien Hoa provinces, 2d Brigade, US 25th Infantry Division
was forced to operate in the Phuoc Tuy province because the Australian
Army could not handle the enemy or pacification program without us.
This is in addition to the fact that US troops guarded the seaport and
other installations at Vung Tau, and provided road convoy security to
and from.

Yawn, 1 ATF pacified the area quite nicely, in the dates you indicate
the
Australian deployment was winding down (like the US one) however -


Westmoreland never thanked Australia for "pacifying the Phuoc Tuy
Province" or "destroying the 5th VC Division and D445" because
they never did.

General Westmoreland commented on the Australian troops that: "I have never
seen a finer group of men. I have never fought with a finer group of
soldiers".

You can't permanently destroy a formation like a Div as new troops are
inducted into it.

If you had served in the military you would know that.

Yet David Horner himself (who wrote the only reference you own) notes that
D445 were reduced to impotence by the Australians.

But then if you had served, you wouldn't keep making such an arse of
yourself would you?


The VC had bunkers and tunnels EVERYWHERE and the Kangaroos-in-denial
could not find all of them. Everytime the Australian weenies thought
they "hunted out the province" the Communists paid them a nice visit.
From David Horner's history of Australian SAS:

http://www.abc.net.au/austory/transcripts/s329667.htm

The Americans went there, found the tunnel entrances, sealed the tunnel
entrances after blowing smoke down to find other entrances, and didn't go
down the tunnels. General Westmoreland was against going down tunnels. We
didn't know that. As soon as we came across a tunnel in Ben Cat area, I knew
that I was going to be the first down as far as I was concerned and I was
going to do it. So I went down head first with a torch in one hand and a
pistol in the other and my feet tied - one foot was tied - and my sergeant
was lowering me down the tunnel as I went down. And was I scared?
Absolutely, I was.

The information that we brought out of the tunnels was enormous. There were
guns, there were typewriters. We were right on the headquarters of the Gia
Dinh area. There was over 100,000 sheets of paper. We had the list of
Vietcong agents in Saigon. It was like a feast of intelligence, and I KNEW
that we were making a difference to the war effort. There's no doubt about
that.


DENNIS AYOUB, ex "Tunnel Rat": Sandy had to make us a cohesive bunch, and he
did, though he got the very best out of us by pushing us and by pushing us
as hard as possible, and, in fact, after a while there was a begrudging
respect for this guy because we used to achieve.


SANDY: Straight after that, General Westmoreland changed his mind and said
we were going to have now a strategy of searching down, searching out
tunnels and pulling out the intelligence. It's too valuable. That was the
difference that we made.


April 1969: Lt. General Julian Ewell of the US Army II Field Force
issued a directive to 1st Australian Task Force they should change
their concept of operations to concentrate on pacification;
interdiction of local VC as they entered villages in the east of
the province". Nevertheless, there was no major VC main force activity
in 1969 other than the summer offensive.

May 1969: Elements of 33 NVA Regiment, 274 VC Regiment and local
VC began a month long operation around the villages and hamlets along
Route 15 and provincial Route 2. Their intentions were unknown, but
it was believed they may have wanted to disrupt normal government
administration. The build-up for a VC-NVA assault of this size
should have been obvious to Australian troops but they were taken
by surprise. The SAS failed to detect the staging areas and
Australian officers ignored the warning signs from previous contacts.
In May and June there were several enemy rocket attacks on the
Australian Task Force base at Nui Dat.


and these were the only rocket attacks on bases in the whole of Vietnam were
they?


June 1969: 3 Squadron of the SAS Regiment conducted eleven patrols
with a total of 157 enemy troops sighted and five contacts resulting
in eight VC killed. Results for July 308 enemy sighted, five killed.


the difference being that these are credible numbers rather than the
fantasies submitted by US units.


September 1969: As his Vietnam tour ended, Brigadier Pearson halted
operations around Dak Do and since the VC often moved to high ground
between raids, the SAS began patrolling around the May Taos, a VC
mountain stronghold on the border of the Long Khanh province.


Which means that troops were deployed into areas that the VC were likely to
be found, what do you think it means?


April 1970: Task Force began Operation CONCRETE in the Xuyen
Moc district, Phuoc Tuy province, with the aim of destroying
D445 VC Main Force Battalion and its base areas.

"the sustained effort against D445 and D440 in the period Sept 1969 - Apr
1970 resulted in those units becoming essentially inactive, and subsequently
they were removed from the province for rest, reinforcement and retraining"
D. Horner "Duty First" P.271

I couldn't be bothered doing a piece by piece refutation of the rubbish you
post, it's all based on what is at best your total misunderstanding of the
military or, what is far more likely, the fact that you are a lying piece of
****.

You are routinely caught lying and misquoting sources, your credibility is
nil.

Now tell us about your military experience, why should we give any credence
to whay you post?

"L'acrobat" wrote in message
...
cut
: 11.5 years in the Aust army, most of it in 3 RAR (Para) and you
don't think
: I am going to give stridently barking loons like yourself the info
you need
: to send your nonsense to my current employer do you?
:
: Now its your turn Evan, tell us about your experience.
:
: I'm sure that there are plenty here who could ask pertinent
questions to
: verify it...

Ex Royal New Zealand Navy myself....
Now's time to let us in on -your- history Evan
_________________________________________
George Black
ICQ#: 6963409
More ways to contact me: http://wwp.icq.com/6963409
_________________________________________
Home page: http://www.koekejunction.hnpl.net/

"Sunny" wrote in message news:3AsPa.32$wU5.0@news-
3. February - June 1968. After thumbing their noses at Australia
for two years, the 5th VC Division and parts of D445 VC Battalion
were shattered by US troops around Bien Hoa and Long Binh during Tet
and Mini-Tet. American troops should not have encountered these 2nd-
rate Viet Cong units at all, but unfortunately the Australians could
not handle them and let the buggers get away -- as they often did by
the admission of the Australian General Tim Vincent. The consequences
were that, thanks to US troops, it was quiet in the Phuoc Tuy province
while the enemy licked his wounds and slowly rebuilt 5th VC Division
and D445 VC Battalion.


Fact....The VC units that the US forces encountered did not come
from the Aust AO. By that period US forces had taken resposibility
for the northern and western approaches to Bien Hoa and Long Binh.


You're grasping at straws, not facts. The 274 Regiment hit the eastern
bunker lines of Bien Hoa. The 275 Regiment also slipped past the
Australians to attack the northern perimeter of Long Binh. Parts of
the D445 VC Battalion were mixed in.

And besides, Australian troops -- had they been as effective as
your propaganda claims -- would have destroyed these units during
1966-67 and that way US troops would not have to see them, and
destroy them, in 1968.

After the D440 was disbanded and its personnel used to replenish
the D445, they were once again a thorn in the side of Australia. : )


4. February 1968. Town of Baria (the Phuoc Tuy province capital)
was captured by part of D445 VC Battalion during the Tet Offensive.
The Australians from A/3 RAR and their armored units from 3 Cavalry
could not dislodge them with their own resources and had to rely on
South Vietnamese units to jettison the VC from Baria.

Utter frog ****... Fact..... the SVN forces were overwhelmed in the
first attacks.


Fact: The civilian population and police were overwhelmed. Fact: South
Vietnamese troops bailed out the Australians at Baria.


5. May 1968. Part of the Australian TF found themselves besieged
at FSBs CORAL and BALMORAL and American air power was called for help.
US aircraft carried out airstrikes on advancing and retreating NVA
and their supply lines.

Bull****,...Fact.... The Aust forces called in and directed air and arty
support. May come as a shock to you but calling in US air support was
actually allowed.(and you don't repulse ground attacks by "bombing supply lines")


Maybe on your planet, but not here on Earth.



6. July 1970 to April 1971. In addition to responsibilities in Long
Khanh and Bien Hoa provinces, 2d Brigade, US 25th Infantry Division
was forced to operate in the Phuoc Tuy province because the Australian
Army could not handle the enemy or pacification program without us.
This is in addition to the fact that US troops guarded the seaport and
other installations at Vung Tau, and provided road convoy security to
and from.

More Bull****... Fact......Ops during the period 1969/70 so decimated the
VC in Phouc Tuy that D445 ceased to operate as a unit.


Australian propaganda is not fact. Many documents have been found and
cited. Even if Australian body counts were accurate, there is no
evidence that Australia ever seriously damaged the D445 VC Battalion,
D440 VC Battalion, the undersized 5th VC Division, or local VC companies.

And there is no proof that your body counts were typically accurate
and the amount of enemy activity by these units suggests otherwise.


"guarded" their own establishments in Vung Tau and never provided "road
convoy security" for anyone but their own movements, (as we did)

7. April 1971-June 1972. The 2d Brigade, US 25th Infantry Division
was replaced by the 3d Brigade, US 1st Cavalry Division (Airmobile).
Despite the recent and massive withdrawl of Allied forces, the Air Cav
"fire brigade" was responsible for ranging three provinces, Binh Tuy,
Long Khanh and Phuoc Tuy. Their air assault training and larger fleet
of helicopter lift and gunships made this possible. Such widespread
coverage was well beyond the capability of any Australian brigade.

What bloody Brigade?



At peak, there was about 8,000 Australian troops in Vietnam. An Air
Cavalry brigade had roughly the same number of men but they were a
far more effective and free ranging killing machine during their time
in Vietnam from 1965-72.

Unlike the more gravitationally-challenged Australian infantry, the
Air Cav could set up ambushes where and when they pleased in their
TOAR, or they could land right on top of the VC/NVA when it suited
them...when Charlie was taking a nap, when Charlie was taking a crap,
when Charlie was reading another Dear Gian letter...


8. 1965-1972. Supply flow to Viet Cong units in Phuoc Tuy province
came via the Ho Chi Minh Trail, Mekong Delta and ports in Cambodia.
This meant the goods had to pass through areas that were patrolled by
Americans and other Allied units, who often intercepted the supplies.
Captured documents revealed that, thanks to US forces, VC units in the
Phuoc Tuy province complained of shortages in food and other stocks.

More bull****... Fact.... The VC obtained all their food from within Phuoc
Tuy and Aust ops that denied them access to villages caused most of their
food shortages.


Now you're getting really desperate. Dream on!

"L'acrobat" wrote in message ...
"Evan Brennan" wrote in message
m...
modeled after the SAS is
easy to discredit..." (April 23, 2002).

Good lord, Evan gets caught lying again!

Who'd a thunk it!

and he seemed so credible....



.....As L'acrobat loses his daily battle with logic (and written
English apparently) he simply repeats himself like a Xerox machine
after a lightning strike. ; )

Oh Evan, given your constant record of untruths how can we believe that you
even think the above is true?


Let me guess. You were born in a trailer, live in a trailer or have existed
in a trailer for some period of time.

"Evan Brennan" wrote in message
m...
snip
Australian propaganda is not fact. Many documents have been found and
cited. Even if Australian body counts were accurate, there is no
evidence that Australia ever seriously damaged the D445 VC Battalion,
D440 VC Battalion, the undersized 5th VC Division, or local VC companies.

I am not quoting from "propaganda" I served in SVN (infantry)
You would do better in your supposed "quest for the truth", if you read a
larger selection of material.

And there is no proof that your body counts were typically accurate
and the amount of enemy activity by these units suggests otherwise.

Your joking right? according to US "body counts" charlie was wiped out
three times over.

"guarded" their own establishments in Vung Tau and never provided "road
convoy security" for anyone but their own movements, (as we did)

7. April 1971-June 1972. The 2d Brigade, US 25th Infantry Division
was replaced by the 3d Brigade, US 1st Cavalry Division (Airmobile).
Despite the recent and massive withdrawl of Allied forces, the Air Cav
"fire brigade" was responsible for ranging three provinces, Binh Tuy,
Long Khanh and Phuoc Tuy. Their air assault training and larger fleet
of helicopter lift and gunships made this possible. Such widespread
coverage was well beyond the capability of any Australian brigade.

What bloody Brigade?

At peak, there was about 8,000 Australian troops in Vietnam. An Air
Cavalry brigade had roughly the same number of men but they were a
far more effective and free ranging killing machine during their time
in Vietnam from 1965-72.

Read your original statement a bit closer. you were discussing 1971-72
(The Aust commitment had been more than halved by then and two Bns do not
even go close to a "Brigade"

Unlike the more gravitationally-challenged Australian infantry, the
Air Cav could set up ambushes where and when they pleased in their
TOAR, or they could land right on top of the VC/NVA when it suited
them...when Charlie was taking a nap, when Charlie was taking a crap,
when Charlie was reading another Dear Gian letter...

Yep, saw a few of their "automatic ambushes" during my "gravitationally
challenged" strolls through the country side. (they did not even have the
common dog f**k to pass on grid references to their "allies")
Auto Ambush = a large qty of Clamore mines, setup with trip wire initiation,
then back in the choppers and home for a beer.

BTW, Part of a statement by Lieutenant General Julian J Ewell (Commanding
General 11 Field Force Vietnam)
"Only by grinding away at the enemy, capturing his supplies and denying him
his sanctuaries as you are doing, will we be able to force him out of Phuoc
Tuy Province, and out of the Republic of Vietnam"
(Just after the conclusion of Operation Hammersley, in which 8 RAR, with
elements of A Sqn 1 Armd Regt and 3 Troop B Sqn 3 Cav Regt, attacked the VC
controlled Long Hai Hills and delivered a severe blow to D445 which had
concentrated there.)

"Evan Brennan" wrote in message

.....As L'acrobat loses his daily battle with logic (and written
English apparently) he simply repeats himself like a Xerox machine
after a lightning strike. ; )

Oh Evan, given your constant record of untruths how can we believe that
you
even think the above is true?


Let me guess. You were born in a trailer, live in a trailer or have
existed
in a trailer for some period of time.

If it were the case, it would still put me well above you, since you can
only aspire to inhabiting a trailer.

"L'acrobat" waxed lyrical
:

I couldn't be bothered doing a piece by piece refutation of the
rubbish you post, it's all based on what is at best your total
misunderstanding of the military or, what is far more likely, the fact
that you are a lying piece of ****.

You are routinely caught lying and misquoting sources, your
credibility is nil.


Errr. . . this much we know. What amazes me is that you continue to
play wack-a-mole with his imperial cluelessness. Surely the fun must've
gone by now? Just killfile and move on. I sometimes look through google
at his posts if I have a half hour to kill and fancy a laugh, but to take
him seriously or engage him in argument seems like a waste of
intellectual capacity. He's a brain donor, an oxygen thief, an idiot
without a village, move on!

--
--------
Regards
Drewe
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity

"Drewe Manton" wrote in message
. 4...
"L'acrobat" waxed lyrical
:

I couldn't be bothered doing a piece by piece refutation of the
rubbish you post, it's all based on what is at best your total
misunderstanding of the military or, what is far more likely, the fact
that you are a lying piece of ****.

You are routinely caught lying and misquoting sources, your
credibility is nil.


Errr. . . this much we know. What amazes me is that you continue to
play wack-a-mole with his imperial cluelessness. Surely the fun must've
gone by now? Just killfile and move on. I sometimes look through google
at his posts if I have a half hour to kill and fancy a laugh, but to take
him seriously or engage him in argument seems like a waste of
intellectual capacity. He's a brain donor, an oxygen thief, an idiot
without a village, move on!


I admit tormenting him has been fun, but you are right, conducting a battle
of wits with an unarmed man does start to pale after a while.

"L'acrobat" wrote in message ...
But they learned and improved whereas Australia did not improve much
at all, save for the SAS since they embraced US style airmobility. The very
low number of kills claimed by Oz infantry speaks louderthan your lame
attempts at cooking up a cover story.

Now it turns out that you are forced to admit that they didn't teach the
Aussies how to do it, your back flip with half pike is amusing to say the
least, the follow on 'but they learned and the Aussies didn't' is laughable
as an attempt to retreat from your earlier gaffe.


Looks like you got all excited and wet yourself over a few initial
encounters of one Australian battalion and two US battalions from
the 173d Airborne. I hate to ruin a surprise for you, but at peak,
there was 81 US Army/USMC infantry battalions and most of them never
had contact with Australian troops in the field.

This will be a blow to your overinflated ego, but the US Air Cavalry
accomplished more in *one summer* than the Australian Task Force did
during their entire stay in Vietnam. From 1 May 1970 to 30 June 1970,
elements of the 1st Cavalry Division (Airmobile) amassed a kill ratio
of 2,574 : 157 against the NVA/VC during the invasion of Cambodia.

US units also uncovered massive supply bases used by the 7th NVA
Division, 5th VC Division, 9th VC Division and other units with their
main headquarters located in the Fishhook. Enough rice was seized to
feed 38,000 troops for a year and enough small arms to equip 55 full-
strength VC battalions. The 1st Cavalry took a big chunk of this loot.


Westmoreland never thanked Australia for "pacifying the Phuoc Tuy
Province" or "destroying the 5th VC Division and D445" because
they never did.

General Westmoreland commented on the Australian troops that:
"I have never seen a finer group of men. I have never fought with
a finer group of soldiers".


I have no objections to his few kind words -- but he did not thank
them for pacifying Phuoc Tuy province or destroying 5th VC Division
and D445 -- because they never did.

Remember that the Australian SAS kissed Westmoreland where he sits
when they copied his Recondo School, which L.G. Clark formed at
Ingleburn in November 1960 based on his experience in the USA. Reg
Beeseley conducted nine Australian Recondo courses based on the US
system and thought it was the most realistic part of SAS training.
Australia scored points for brown-nosing Westmoreland.


the difference being that these are credible numbers rather than the
fantasies submitted by US units.


Nope. Hanoi has admitted that over a million Communist troops died
and that exceeds the MACV and CIA body count estimates that Walter
Cronkite once got all lathered up about.

Australian infantry units chipped in only about 1,200 enemy killed
during the entire war. Totally pathetic. The inability of Digger
infantry to close with the more crafty and resourceful VC on a
consistent basis left many an Australian Commander looking like
a cub scout having a temper tantrum. Since Australian infantry
could not find or catch the enemy, their only hope was to let the
enemy come to them, as they did at Long Tan, Coral, Balmoral,
Nui Dat, Xuyen Moc, Binh Gia, etc.

US troops did not have these unfortunate deficiencies. Their swarms
of Huey slicks, gunships and LOH helicopters allowed them to set
up ambushes anywhere, land near the enemy, or land on top of the
enemy at will.


April 1970: Task Force began Operation CONCRETE in the Xuyen
Moc district, Phuoc Tuy province, with the aim of destroying
D445 VC Main Force Battalion and its base areas.

"the sustained effort against D445 and D440 in the period Sept 1969 - Apr
1970 resulted in those units becoming essentially inactive, and subsequently
they were removed from the province for rest, reinforcement and retraining"
D. Horner "Duty First" P.271



I don't disagree with this. But your interpretation is a brand of
faux-confusion parading as intellect. The "sustained effort" by
Australia was really easy since the D445 was reduced to a shell
after Tet-68 and Mini-Tet 68, thanks to US and SVN troops doing the
job on them. The D445 was rebuilt with personnel from the disbanded
D440 VC Battalion.

To get a fix on all the damage done by the ATF, all we have to do is
add up the original and replacement manpower strength of every enemy
division, regiment, battalion, company engaged by the ATF in Vietnam
and then subtract the kills claimed by the ATF. None of those units
were destroyed by Australian forces.


Now tell us about your military experience


Yo, Trailer Park...this act is wearing thin.

Tell us about your military experience -- after you tell us your real
name. We cannot tell if you are male or female. Based on the hissy fits
you always burst into, I would guess the latter.


I couldn't be bothered doing a piece by piece refutation of the rubbish you
post, it's all based on what is at best your total misunderstanding of the
military


Everyone knows that you cannot be bothered with facts.

Why don't you just go to the library and read PHANTOMS of WAR instead
of continuously and baselessly denying the contents of same.