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#121
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Why GA is Dying
"Jose" wrote in message t... the fact remains that taking pictures at airports has now been placed within the realm of a possible security issue So is wearing shoes, taking notes, walking around, and sneezing. It's all within the realm of a possible security issue. In fact posting on Usenet is most certainly a security issue, so anybody who posts on Usenet should accept that they may be accosted at any time for any reason by security should they wish to be at an airport. Most medium sized airports do not allow free access to the ramp, and have not, for years before 911. People have been detained, all across the country, for taking suspicious amounts of pictures, as they were casing tall buildings. They were arrested and deported, based on the types of pictures they had taken. Sounds like there is a law, somewhere, supporting this. -- Jim in NC |
#122
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Why GA is Dying
"Jose" wrote in message t... This is correct, and it's also the reason why the people deciding what constitutes a security issue are indeed civilian and not police. Police are simply the tool that implements these decisions. The people who decide what consititues a security issue should not =be= security people, civilian or not. Security peopls should =advise= our leaders, but should not make the decisions, since it is in their best interests that everything be a security issue. Perhaps I need to be a bit clearer on this for certain people. When I say "civilian", I mean the following; which should be obvious to a teacher :-) These decisions ARE made by civilian leaders at the highest level of ELECTED GOVERNMENT. These leaders consult with ALL the necessary specialists in the field, both civilian and military when making these decisions, then the decisions are made at the highest level, which is the elected civilian government. Police....and indeed ALL those directed by this top leadership authority, are then DIRECTED to IMPLEMENT the decisions that have been made. Is this clear enough? Dudley Henriques |
#123
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Why GA is Dying
Jose schrieb:
Foreigners are not (and should not be) granted the same freedoms as American Citizens when on American soil. Yes. Oh, and Blacks shouldn't be granted the same rights as whites and women shouldn't be ganted the same rights as men and ... geeezz. Stefan |
#124
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Why GA is Dying
You just proved the point in this original case. The person taking the
pictures was asked to have his ID examined. Is that not the first step in determining if he was an US citizen? I was about to reply under the assumption that it was the police doing the asking, but I checked the OP and found I was confusing two different posts. From the OP (Kyle's): In the middle of this, one of the employees from the FBO came over and asked the guy to go to the FBO and present his photo ID so the FBO would know who is making pictures at the airport. From the one I was conflating (Emily's): I once had a cop come up to me at the observation area and ask why I was taking pictures. I told him that it wasn't illegal and I wasn't under any obligation to explain myself to him. I still don't know whether this was a small airport or a large one (it would make a little difference). It would also make a difference if the photo taking looked suspicious or innocouous. My impression from the OP is that it was innocuous, and the FBO was overreacting. And being foreign or not is a bit of a red herring, (despite the fact that I brought it up) inasmuch as nobody knows whether somebody is a citizen or not before checking ID (and with lots of fake ID out there, a real foreigner intent on harm is likely to be able to fool an FBO if he doens't push too hard). Whether action should be taken (checking ID, calling the cops...) depends on the suspiciousness of the activity in context. Simply taking pictures at an airport with the pilot present does not strike me as suspicious. Perhaps there were other circumstances. If you can argue back against this point, it will only show that you are _only_ out to continue an argument. If I =can= (successfully) argue back, it would show no such thing. Security and freedom are a balancing act. There is a heavy hand on the security side. The only thing on the freedom side are individuals like you, me, Emily, and Kyle. If people like us don't speak up, whether on Usenet or otherwise, we'll end up with things like a flight restriction zone around the capital, where (dangerous) little airplanes can't go and (politically connected) big airplanes can. Jose -- The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#125
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Why GA is Dying
Foreigners are not (and should not be) granted the same freedoms as American Citizens when on American soil.
Yes. Oh, and Blacks shouldn't be granted the same rights as whites and women shouldn't be ganted the same rights as men and ... geeezz. What problem do you have with my statement? There is no parallel between yours and mine. Jews are not entitled to the same rights to Holy Communion as Catholics. This is nothing against Jews, it is simply that =members= (of anything) hold greater rights (=within= that something). It is what "membership" means. I even qualified my original statement with "when on American Soil", though I thought it would be obvious. Jose -- The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#126
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Why GA is Dying
Voting. Work. Carrying a gun. Buying certain businesses
or getting a business license. Running for President. These are just a few of the many legal reasons and areas when citizens and non-citizens are treated differently. Yet non-citizens can get a pilot's certificate, get a green card and work, buy a hunting license and carry a gun with certain restrictions. "Jose" wrote in message t... | Foreigners are not (and should not be) granted the same freedoms as American Citizens when on American soil. | | Yes. Oh, and Blacks shouldn't be granted the same rights as whites and women shouldn't be ganted the same rights as men and ... geeezz. | | What problem do you have with my statement? There is no parallel | between yours and mine. | | Jews are not entitled to the same rights to Holy Communion as Catholics. | | This is nothing against Jews, it is simply that =members= (of anything) | hold greater rights (=within= that something). It is what "membership" | means. I even qualified my original statement with "when on American | Soil", though I thought it would be obvious. | | Jose | -- | The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music. | for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#127
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Why GA is Dying
"Jose" wrote in message t... People have been detained, all across the country, for taking suspicious amounts of pictures, as they were casing tall buildings. They were arrested and deported, based on the types of pictures they had taken. Sounds like there is a law, somewhere, supporting this. Foreigners are not (and should not be) granted the same freedoms as American Citizens when on American soil. You just proved the point in this original case. The person taking the pictures was asked to have his ID examined. Is that not the first step in determining if he was an US citizen? If you can argue back against this point, it will only show that you are _only_ out to continue an argument. -- Jim in NC |
#128
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Why GA is Dying
"Jose" wrote in message t... Security and freedom are a balancing act. There is a heavy hand on the security side. The only thing on the freedom side are individuals like you, me, Emily, and Kyle. If people like us don't speak up, whether on Usenet or otherwise, we'll end up with things like a flight restriction zone around the capital, where (dangerous) little airplanes can't go and (politically connected) big airplanes can. Jose You are correct that freedom and security are a balancing act, and you are also correct that the bias at this point in time favors security. You are wrong however, that the only people on the freedom side of this equation are people like you, and the people you have mentioned. There are many people out here on the security side of the coin deeply involved with getting the security issue as under control as possible with a minimal loss of individual freedoms. This is no easy task, and mistakes have and will be made. The system always needs improvement. You do a dis-service to the people in security trying to make it better when you assume that the only ones who understand the freedom issue are those like you who endorse those who immediately "take on" security people and rail on about their "rights" when approached while taking pictures at an airport rather than responding in a spirit of cooperation. The sad part of your line of reasoning is that its actually people arguing your position who make the situation worse instead of better. You seem to believe that authority means loss of freedom. Its responses like Emily's misguided antics at the airport that make the security issue all that much harder to implement and as a result of that, possibly even more restrictive measures must be put in place. You people are defeating your own agenda! Dudley Henriques |
#129
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Why GA is Dying
Jose wrote:
Foreigners are not (and should not be) granted the same freedoms as American Citizens when on American soil. Does that mean they have no right to life or liberty? If they are murdered does that mean the murderer need not be prosecuted? If they are robbed, does that mean they can't bring charges? If you contract to buy products, raw material, or services from foreigners (or they from you), how do you think they can enforce your contractual obligation if they have no recognized freedoms? If the above questions give you pause to realize foreigners may have need for some rights and freedoms, how are you going to pick-and-choose which rights freedoms they should be granted? What would you like to see if you travel to other countries? Are you perhaps confusing _services_ with _rights_? After all, the statement "Foreigners who have not paid taxes should not be granted any government services not needed to defend or maintain their rights," might be what some are really intending to say, but may be conflating rights and freedoms with government provided services. |
#130
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Why GA is Dying
There are
many people out here on the security side of the coin deeply involved with getting the security issue as under control as possible with a minimal loss of individual freedoms. I hope so, and it is not an easy task. But on my end I see things like the DC ADIZ, shoe removal, metal detectors in schools, and broad wiretap authority being accepted as a matter of course. It only needs to be in place for five or ten years for our children, who grow up with it as a natural part of the landscape, to consider it normal. You do a dis-service to the people in security trying to make it better when you assume that the only ones who understand the freedom issue are those like you who endorse those who immediately "take on" security people and rail on about their "rights" when approached while taking pictures at an airport rather than responding in a spirit of cooperation. I understand those who bristle when approached in a spirit of authority rather than a spirit of cooperation. You seem to believe that authority means loss of freedom. It needen't (and authority is important for the preservation of freedom). I am however =extremely= concerned about the unchecked spread of authority, especially inasmuch as it impacts aviation, which it is doing. I am also concerned when it makes unrelated impingement (such as the demolition of Jay's runway) easier by eroding opposition in general. Jose -- The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
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