FAA Investigates American Flyers

MRQB wrote:

i will not deal with any company that dose a surcharge for
taking credit card and if i find one that is charging i report them ASAP.

Really? And in your opinion, what is the difference between that and a discount
for paying by cash or check?

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

"G.R. Patterson III"
i will not deal with any company that dose a surcharge for
taking credit card and if i find one that is charging i report them
ASAP.

Really? And in your opinion, what is the difference between that and a
discount
for paying by cash or check?

None except better salesmanship.

I asked that when I heard about that rule and the rep told me it was not
permissible to charge different amounts for cash vs. credit, so either way
was in violation of their agreement.

It is still done all the time; just about all ultra discount internet
electronics junk outfits do it. Perhaps the card issuers don't bother going
after merchants for that.

I am surprised that a supposedly reputable company tries that, it is
terrible customer relations.

After American Flyers took over Westair's training I was in the market for
training towards my instrument rating and decided to go to AF for my BFR. I
did it in just about the minimum required time for air and ground work and
the bill was a tad over $400. A friend had a nearly identical experience
with them so that must be what they charge for BFRs. Perhaps that was a
good thing, though, as that made me decide not to go there for my instrument
training.

Peter



"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


MRQB wrote:

i will not deal with any company that dose a surcharge for
taking credit card and if i find one that is charging i report them
ASAP.

Really? And in your opinion, what is the difference between that and a
discount
for paying by cash or check?

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money
prolonging
the problem.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message ...
"Roy Smith" wrote in message ...

When I paid my bill, I was astounded when they tacked on a few extra
bucks to cover credit card transaction fees! It wasn't a whole lot of
money, but I've never heard of anybody ever doing anything like that.
I didn't even think it was legal.

Whether they can pass on the credit card fees depends on what state you're
in. It's legal here (Virginia) but not in California.

That's interesting. Just about every FBO I ever visit offers a
lower "cash" price for the purchase of fuel (some even in California).
Is that the same thing as passing on credit card fees?

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

"Peter Gottlieb" wrote in message
t...
I asked that when I heard about that rule and the rep told me it was not
permissible to charge different amounts for cash vs. credit, so either way
was in violation of their agreement.

It is still done all the time; just about all ultra discount internet
electronics junk outfits do it. Perhaps the card issuers don't bother
going
after merchants for that.

I am surprised that a supposedly reputable company tries that, it is
terrible customer relations.

After American Flyers took over Westair's training I was in the market for
training towards my instrument rating and decided to go to AF for my BFR.
I
did it in just about the minimum required time for air and ground work and
the bill was a tad over $400. A friend had a nearly identical experience
with them so that must be what they charge for BFRs. Perhaps that was a
good thing, though, as that made me decide not to go there for my
instrument
training.

Peter

$400 for an hour of flight time and two hours of CFI time? That's beyond
absured.

(John Galban) wrote:
That's interesting. Just about every FBO I ever visit offers a
lower "cash" price for the purchase of fuel (some even in California).
Is that the same thing as passing on credit card fees?

The difference is representation. I had no idea I was going to be
paying a "transaction fee" until they handed me the credit slip to sign.
The sign on the wall says (figuratively), "Simulator: $100/hr, including
instructor. We accept Visa and Mastercard" (don't hold me to the actual
dollar amount, I don't remember exactly). At the end of the session,
the tach on the sim shows I used (for example) 1.5 hours, so I expect to
pay $150. I also expect to pay sales tax on top of that, even though
the sign doesn't say "plus tax".

If they hand me a charge slip for $150 sim time plus $5 "transaction
fee" plus tax, they've misrepresented the cost to me at the time I was
able to make an informed decision as to whether I wanted to buy what
they were selling. I've been cheated out of $5.

On the other hand, if they say to me at settlement time, "We offer a $5
discount if you pay by check", there's no deception (at least none that
harms me). I can decide I want to save the $5 and write them a check,
or I can just hand them my credit card and get the deal I was expecting.
If I didn't have my checkbook with me, I might be annoyed that I'm
missing out on an opportunity to save $5, but at least I'm not paying
any more than I contracted for.

It's possible they're violating the terms of their agreement with the
credit company, but that's no skin off my back.

In article , Peter
Gottlieb wrote:

I asked that when I heard about that rule and the rep told me it was not
permissible to charge different amounts for cash vs. credit, so either way
was in violation of their agreement.

What about all the gas stations that have a cash price and a credit
price?

I haven't seen as much of that in the past couple of years, but it was
common practice at most gas stations up until just recently.

If it is $100.00 an hour and you have 1.50 hours should be $150.00 and if
they give you a $5.00 cash discount should be $145.00 most reputable
business when figuring their profit add in the credit card fees in to their
expenses so that they can recoup their fees or they will just use it as a
business expense and get the tax benefits. on the other hand you get the
company's that like to make more profit from a transaction fee of $5.00 on a
$100.00 transaction costs them $2.20 + $0.40 = $2.60 they are making $2.40
then since it is a transaction fee they can still claim the $2.60 on their
taxes as a expense as they can say the fee is for something else rather than
credit card surcharge. now times that by 10 to 1000 transaction fees a day
then by 365.

Yes credit card merchant service will cancel any merchant that is charging a
surcharge unless that surcharge/fee is for all types of payment including
cash. it don't matter who the merchant account is through
Visa/Mastercard/Amex/ All of them state in their contract with you that is
if you have a surcharge it must apply to all forums of payment and any
violation of this could result in termination of contract and future
merchant services, charge back and or legal action. Yes some states may
allow it but Visa/Mastercard/Amex/ do not. Novus/Discover Allow it in my
contract.

If American Flyers gets probed hard enough from one federal agency they may
get probed by another that may expose the double dipping. I have merchant
accounts and have had legal council about applying a surcharge but decided
the tax benefits are a bit better than passing the costs on to the consumer.
But enough business talk lets get back to the fun stuff Flying.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
(John Galban) wrote:
That's interesting. Just about every FBO I ever visit offers a
lower "cash" price for the purchase of fuel (some even in California).
Is that the same thing as passing on credit card fees?

The difference is representation. I had no idea I was going to be
paying a "transaction fee" until they handed me the credit slip to sign.
The sign on the wall says (figuratively), "Simulator: $100/hr, including
instructor. We accept Visa and Mastercard" (don't hold me to the actual
dollar amount, I don't remember exactly). At the end of the session,
the tach on the sim shows I used (for example) 1.5 hours, so I expect to
pay $150. I also expect to pay sales tax on top of that, even though
the sign doesn't say "plus tax".

If they hand me a charge slip for $150 sim time plus $5 "transaction
fee" plus tax, they've misrepresented the cost to me at the time I was
able to make an informed decision as to whether I wanted to buy what
they were selling. I've been cheated out of $5.

On the other hand, if they say to me at settlement time, "We offer a $5
discount if you pay by check", there's no deception (at least none that
harms me). I can decide I want to save the $5 and write them a check,
or I can just hand them my credit card and get the deal I was expecting.
If I didn't have my checkbook with me, I might be annoyed that I'm
missing out on an opportunity to save $5, but at least I'm not paying
any more than I contracted for.

It's possible they're violating the terms of their agreement with the
credit company, but that's no skin off my back.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message ...

If they hand me a charge slip for $150 sim time plus $5 "transaction
fee" plus tax, they've misrepresented the cost to me at the time I was
able to make an informed decision as to whether I wanted to buy what
they were selling. I've been cheated out of $5.

This is precisely the reason for the law (when it was still a federal law).

"Tom Fleischman" wrote in message
rthlink.net...

What about all the gas stations that have a cash price and a credit
price?

I haven't seen as much of that in the past couple of years, but it was
common practice at most gas stations up until just recently

I haven't seen such a thing in decades and I've lived and travelled
through many states. I remember it briefly in the early eighties and
the stations allowed you to avoid it by using "their" credit card and
I had a bunch of gas cards as a result. I terminated all of them when
they went back to taking VISA/MC for the same price. Most of the
OIL cards now are logo'd VISA/MC/AMEX cards now anyhow.