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Wanting to start a new glider club



 
 
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  #41  
Old April 29th 18, 11:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,099
Default Wanting to start a new glider club

On Sunday, April 29, 2018 at 3:30:06 AM UTC-6, Paul T wrote:
At 20:43 28 April 2018, Chris Rowland wrote:
I did most of my ab initio training and learning to be an instructor

o
autotow.

I'd suggest avoiding reverse pulley because it's difficult for both

the to
car driver and pilot to know when to finish the launch. With

straigh
autotow it's easy, stop sufficiently before the end of the runway

that yo
can drive forward and lay the cable out.

Another issue is cross winds. The cable will drift downwind and

looking a
Ronan on Google Earth there are fields with irrigation equipment

there. Th
farmers will take a dim view of the launch cable being dragged

throug
their irrigation kit.

Chris




Don't see what the problem is at all with reverse pulley - had many
launches that way - the other end of the runway is just as easily
visible to the tow car driver and as speed decays the glider pilot
pulls off - think you creating an issue where none exists.

If you have a straight reverse pulley system and set it up properly,
with removable strops t both ends the cable is waiting for the next
glider, the car drives back and connects to the other end of the cable
and your ready to launch again.

Some reverse pulley systems where just way over the top -KISS is
the answer. Doubt these guys will be doing hundreds of launches a
day.

Crosswinds are something every ground launching site has to
contend with and 1000's of sites around the world seem to manage
ok with proper training - seem to remember the advice was to have
at least 80m width of clear land to launch from.


http://coloradosoaring.org/thinking_...ey/default.htm

I've had a couple of chats with John Foster. There are raised runway lights. Reverse pulley allows a lot more control of the line than direct auto tow, so could be an option. Today, UHMWPE ropes, spectra, dyneema, or polyolefin drag line might work for reverse pulley, though I'm unaware of an operation doing so.

Frank Whiteley
  #42  
Old April 30th 18, 12:08 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Don Johnstone[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 398
Default Wanting to start a new glider club

At 14:13 24 April 2018, AS wrote:


Martin is correct. I met with the Skylaunch engineering team at

past
SSA-co=
nventions and they would be a good company to partner with, if

you want to
=
rehabilitate and upgrade an older winch.
The same goes for Roman's Design made winches. Our local CAP

wing had a
Rom=
an's Design winch for a season and it was a very well built unit.

Either
wa=
y, getting a commercial manufacturer involved will have the

advantage of
re=
ceiving an engineered solution that works but at a cost. So if your

group
i=
s made up from folks that have two left hands with only thumbs on

them, it
=
is best to spend the money and get professional help. I have seen

way too
m=
any examples of winches thrown together by shade-tree mechanics

who
thought=
they knew what they were doing.

Uli
'AS'


It may be simpler than that. What you appear to have in the US that
we don't have so many of is small machine shops. While building a
winch from scratch may not be the way forward upgrading/repairing
a non functioning winch may be an option. Most of the people
running small machine shops are enthusiasts who just enjoy fixing
stuff and in many cases are first class machinists and engineers.
They do not have to know how to design winches, just fix an old
winch that has been discarded. If you want to look at the sort of
person I am thinking of check out Abom69 and others on Youtube



  #43  
Old May 1st 18, 05:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Wanting to start a new glider club

On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 2:56:24 PM UTC-6, John Foster wrote:
Hi everyone

I just started glider flying lessons and I'M HOOKED!!! Unfortunately, the closest glider club is 3:45 hr drive away. I also live in an area that looks to me to be perfect for ridge soaring, with a range of mountains facing the west that runs for at least 85 miles, and possibly longer. We have an airport close by with a 4800' runway, about 2-3 miles west of the mountains. A friend is a CFI and A&P, and is interested in getting his "glider ticket" as well. There are a few other folks in the area that have expressed varying interest in flying gliders as well. But as it currently stands, no one (except one possible individual that I haven't yet talked to) in the area actually flies gliders. My friend and I have talked about the possibility of starting a local club. What would be the best way to go about doing this?




Hello John. I just learned about you from friends in Colorado today. While we are not a formal club, Big Sky Soaring is a small but active group of glider pilots, tow pilots and instructors operating here in Bozeman. We train in a 2-33 and a Duo Discus out of Bozeman and Three Forks Airports. We tow with a 260 Pawnee and we also winch launch on weekends at the Three Forks Airport with a winch that I designed and built. The winch has been highly successful. I designed and built it and would be happy to assist you in building a winch. Bottom line is that we as a group would be very happy to assist you get started. We can provide instruction for gliding, Tow pilot check outs, mountain flying and Winch launching at both ends of the rope. We train pilots for ridge and wave soaring on the Bridger Mountains. I am a glider DPE for all glider ratings including initial CFI. Check us out facebook.com/soaringbozeman/

If interested I can tell you the history of the club Kalispell club and the operation that was in Hamilton.

  #44  
Old May 1st 18, 06:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Foster
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 354
Default Wanting to start a new glider club

On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 10:16:53 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 2:56:24 PM UTC-6, John Foster wrote:
Hi everyone

I just started glider flying lessons and I'M HOOKED!!! Unfortunately, the closest glider club is 3:45 hr drive away. I also live in an area that looks to me to be perfect for ridge soaring, with a range of mountains facing the west that runs for at least 85 miles, and possibly longer. We have an airport close by with a 4800' runway, about 2-3 miles west of the mountains. A friend is a CFI and A&P, and is interested in getting his "glider ticket" as well. There are a few other folks in the area that have expressed varying interest in flying gliders as well. But as it currently stands, no one (except one possible individual that I haven't yet talked to) in the area actually flies gliders. My friend and I have talked about the possibility of starting a local club. What would be the best way to go about doing this?




Hello John. I just learned about you from friends in Colorado today. While we are not a formal club, Big Sky Soaring is a small but active group of glider pilots, tow pilots and instructors operating here in Bozeman. We train in a 2-33 and a Duo Discus out of Bozeman and Three Forks Airports. We tow with a 260 Pawnee and we also winch launch on weekends at the Three Forks Airport with a winch that I designed and built. The winch has been highly successful. I designed and built it and would be happy to assist you in building a winch. Bottom line is that we as a group would be very happy to assist you get started. We can provide instruction for gliding, Tow pilot check outs, mountain flying and Winch launching at both ends of the rope. We train pilots for ridge and wave soaring on the Bridger Mountains. I am a glider DPE for all glider ratings including initial CFI. Check us out facebook..com/soaringbozeman/

If interested I can tell you the history of the club Kalispell club and the operation that was in Hamilton.


Thanks Greg. I have chatted some with Ursula but will definitely be talking with you guys in the future. I'm hoping to get my checkride later this summer, so will need to come for a "visit" for that at the very least. I'm definitely interested in getting some training in mountain flying before attempting to fly here in the Mission Valley, and getting signed off on winch launching is also on the list. Thanks.
  #45  
Old May 1st 18, 07:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,383
Default Wanting to start a new glider club

JF, have you checked with SSA or AOPA on methods to start a flying club? I am members of both, both have some basic guidelines on setting up your situation.

I think talking to locals/other sites not competing with you are a good start.
SSA and AOPA may have more legal info.

Good luck on your endeavor, hope it works out.

I used to fly at a commercial operation in SE NY, it became a club, thus I have seen some of that side.
  #46  
Old May 1st 18, 08:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,099
Default Wanting to start a new glider club

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 12:39:15 PM UTC-6, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
JF, have you checked with SSA or AOPA on methods to start a flying club? I am members of both, both have some basic guidelines on setting up your situation.

I think talking to locals/other sites not competing with you are a good start.
SSA and AOPA may have more legal info.

Good luck on your endeavor, hope it works out.

I used to fly at a commercial operation in SE NY, it became a club, thus I have seen some of that side.


I've had a couple of conversations with John, one on behalf of the SSA. I've actually been working on an SSA project for AOPA for their club map. The info they wanted/needed involved some additional digging and visiting many chapter web sites. I own John more info.

Perhaps he and Greg can get a glider and winch on a 'barnstorming' visit to his location to generate interest and as a proof of concept for the location. Might help generate some interest.

Jim Callaway also reached out John. Jim and friends started the Hamilton Soaring Club, which may be a good model for a small community.

Frank Whiteley
  #47  
Old December 29th 18, 04:33 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Foster
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 354
Default Wanting to start a new glider club

On Sunday, April 29, 2018 at 4:22:59 PM UTC-6, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Sunday, April 29, 2018 at 3:30:06 AM UTC-6, Paul T wrote:
At 20:43 28 April 2018, Chris Rowland wrote:
I did most of my ab initio training and learning to be an instructor

o
autotow.

I'd suggest avoiding reverse pulley because it's difficult for both

the to
car driver and pilot to know when to finish the launch. With

straigh
autotow it's easy, stop sufficiently before the end of the runway

that yo
can drive forward and lay the cable out.

Another issue is cross winds. The cable will drift downwind and

looking a
Ronan on Google Earth there are fields with irrigation equipment

there. Th
farmers will take a dim view of the launch cable being dragged

throug
their irrigation kit.

Chris




Don't see what the problem is at all with reverse pulley - had many
launches that way - the other end of the runway is just as easily
visible to the tow car driver and as speed decays the glider pilot
pulls off - think you creating an issue where none exists.

If you have a straight reverse pulley system and set it up properly,
with removable strops t both ends the cable is waiting for the next
glider, the car drives back and connects to the other end of the cable
and your ready to launch again.

Some reverse pulley systems where just way over the top -KISS is
the answer. Doubt these guys will be doing hundreds of launches a
day.

Crosswinds are something every ground launching site has to
contend with and 1000's of sites around the world seem to manage
ok with proper training - seem to remember the advice was to have
at least 80m width of clear land to launch from.


http://coloradosoaring.org/thinking_...ey/default.htm

I've had a couple of chats with John Foster. There are raised runway lights. Reverse pulley allows a lot more control of the line than direct auto tow, so could be an option. Today, UHMWPE ropes, spectra, dyneema, or polyolefin drag line might work for reverse pulley, though I'm unaware of an operation doing so.

Frank Whiteley


Sorry to dig up this old thread, but now that winter has set in, I'm starting to think and plan more on this project. Do you happen to know where one could get one of these "polyolefin drag lines"? I've looked around a bit, but haven't seen any links for such. I'm also considering various designs for the pulley system. The one that you have linked from the Cotswold GC in Great Britain looks like it would take some effort to build. I've wondered about conscripting an old motorcycle wheel for this purpose and welding up a frame with guides for it to attach to a tow hitch of a pick-up truck. Any proven designs out there like this?
  #48  
Old December 29th 18, 06:26 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,099
Default Wanting to start a new glider club

On Friday, December 28, 2018 at 8:33:58 PM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
On Sunday, April 29, 2018 at 4:22:59 PM UTC-6, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Sunday, April 29, 2018 at 3:30:06 AM UTC-6, Paul T wrote:
At 20:43 28 April 2018, Chris Rowland wrote:
I did most of my ab initio training and learning to be an instructor
o
autotow.

I'd suggest avoiding reverse pulley because it's difficult for both
the to
car driver and pilot to know when to finish the launch. With
straigh
autotow it's easy, stop sufficiently before the end of the runway
that yo
can drive forward and lay the cable out.

Another issue is cross winds. The cable will drift downwind and
looking a
Ronan on Google Earth there are fields with irrigation equipment
there. Th
farmers will take a dim view of the launch cable being dragged
throug
their irrigation kit.

Chris



Don't see what the problem is at all with reverse pulley - had many
launches that way - the other end of the runway is just as easily
visible to the tow car driver and as speed decays the glider pilot
pulls off - think you creating an issue where none exists.

If you have a straight reverse pulley system and set it up properly,
with removable strops t both ends the cable is waiting for the next
glider, the car drives back and connects to the other end of the cable
and your ready to launch again.

Some reverse pulley systems where just way over the top -KISS is
the answer. Doubt these guys will be doing hundreds of launches a
day.

Crosswinds are something every ground launching site has to
contend with and 1000's of sites around the world seem to manage
ok with proper training - seem to remember the advice was to have
at least 80m width of clear land to launch from.


http://coloradosoaring.org/thinking_...ey/default.htm

I've had a couple of chats with John Foster. There are raised runway lights. Reverse pulley allows a lot more control of the line than direct auto tow, so could be an option. Today, UHMWPE ropes, spectra, dyneema, or polyolefin drag line might work for reverse pulley, though I'm unaware of an operation doing so.

Frank Whiteley


Sorry to dig up this old thread, but now that winter has set in, I'm starting to think and plan more on this project. Do you happen to know where one could get one of these "polyolefin drag lines"? I've looked around a bit, but haven't seen any links for such. I'm also considering various designs for the pulley system. The one that you have linked from the Cotswold GC in Great Britain looks like it would take some effort to build. I've wondered about conscripting an old motorcycle wheel for this purpose and welding up a frame with guides for it to attach to a tow hitch of a pick-up truck. Any proven designs out there like this?


The Essex GC one had a reverse pulley set up. However the rig had a lot of stored energy in the pulley wheels. So a wire break could involve quite a mess. I launched on this rig a few times. I think the Cotswold rig was better. In both iterations, solid wire needs considerably more safety area than other methods.

The Cotswold GC was 200 members and 70 gliders. They also owned tow planes, mostly for wave days.

Now, they did pack in the reverse-pulley for a winch. Not sure exactly why, but cost was not the first consideration.

Frank Whiteley
  #49  
Old December 29th 18, 10:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
James Thomson[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 49
Default Wanting to start a new glider club

At 03:33 29 December 2018, John Foster wrote:

Sorry to dig up this old thread, but now that winter has set in, I'm
starti=
ng to think and plan more on this project. Do you happen to know where
one=
could get one of these "polyolefin drag lines"? I've looked around a
bit,=
but haven't seen any links for such. I'm also considering various
designs=
for the pulley system. The one that you have linked from the Cotswold

GC
=
in Great Britain looks like it would take some effort to build. I've
wonde=
red about conscripting an old motorcycle wheel for this purpose and
welding=
up a frame with guides for it to attach to a tow hitch of a pick-up
truck.=
Any proven designs out there like this?

Don't underestimate the loads involved - I doubt if a motorcycle wheel
could cope! The load on the rope from pulley to glider could be up to the

weak link strength and the same load will be in the rope from the pulley to

the towcar. This means that the pulley frame and the anchor point (or
anchor truck) has to withstand twice the weak link break load.

  #50  
Old December 30th 18, 05:04 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Foster
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 354
Default Wanting to start a new glider club

On Saturday, December 29, 2018 at 2:45:04 AM UTC-7, James Thomson wrote:
At 03:33 29 December 2018, John Foster wrote:

Sorry to dig up this old thread, but now that winter has set in, I'm
starti=
ng to think and plan more on this project. Do you happen to know where
one=
could get one of these "polyolefin drag lines"? I've looked around a
bit,=
but haven't seen any links for such. I'm also considering various
designs=
for the pulley system. The one that you have linked from the Cotswold

GC
=
in Great Britain looks like it would take some effort to build. I've
wonde=
red about conscripting an old motorcycle wheel for this purpose and
welding=
up a frame with guides for it to attach to a tow hitch of a pick-up
truck.=
Any proven designs out there like this?

Don't underestimate the loads involved - I doubt if a motorcycle wheel
could cope! The load on the rope from pulley to glider could be up to the

weak link strength and the same load will be in the rope from the pulley to

the towcar. This means that the pulley frame and the anchor point (or
anchor truck) has to withstand twice the weak link break load.


Yes. I expect this would be the case. Do you think a rig similar to the Cotswold design, but made from many roller blade wheel bearings would be able to withstand the forces involved? I would think the more bearings there were, the more the load would be spread out, but I'm not an engineer, so I don't know for sure.
 




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