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#11
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ArtKramr wrote:
In 1937, with career Army Air Corps crews, over Arizona with little wind it worked great! In 1943 with crews that had been in service 18 months, over Germany with flak and fighters...not so well. How the hell would you know? Books, ever heard of them? Oh, I'm sorry that's right, you don't read books about WW II because you subscribe to the "if you weren't there, you don't know ****" theory. The problem with your theory is that nearly all of the books I've read have been written from first hand accounts of people who were there. Except a two mile long train of B-17s looks like donuts rolling off the production line to an Me-109 pilot. We never flew in "long trains". I never said you did you ignorant old goof! What rinky dink air force were you in? The one from the United States. The one that has come to dominate enemies like the Air Force of your generation could only dream of. Too bad you never fought in a real war. Well, I'm in good company. Kramer's "real wars" exclude everyone outside of the World War II ETO from 1943-45. North Africa? Not real. Med? Not real. Pacific? Please...not real. Korea? Not real. Vietnam? Not real. Desert Storm and all the conflicts since then? Not real. In fact, I'm willing to bet the proud group of "Kramer's not real warriors" will never stop growing. I guess once you hit 80+ years of age its too hard to be self retrospective? If I said half the things Kramer has I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror to shave. BUFDRVR "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips everyone on Bear Creek" |
#12
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"ArtKramr" wrote in message ... Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground. From: (B2431) Date: 8/23/2004 8:40 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: From: "Pete" Date: 8/23/2004 9:38 PM Central Daylight Time Message-id: "ArtKramr" wrote Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground. From: (BUFDRVR) Date: 8/23/2004 4:13 PM Pacific Standard Time In 1937, with career Army Air Corps crews, over Arizona with little wind it worked great! In 1943 with crews that had been in service 18 months, over Germany with flak and fighters...not so well. How the hell would you know? Except a two mile long train of B-17s looks like donuts rolling off the production line to an Me-109 pilot. We never flew in "long trains". What rinky dink air force were you in? Not ours for sure. Too bad you never fought in a real war. Jeez, Art! He was *agreeing* with you. Pete If art wanted to experience a real war I would have been glad to oblige by having him next to me when I was in the Army in Viet Nam. Granted we had a greater survival rate than the AAF did (before he got there) but he had a bed to sleep in, hot meals and cold drinks. I don't think he would have lasted even if he was 18 as I was. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired Are't you the big hero. Little ****y tonight there aren't we Art? Better call the nurse for some more medication. Have her unplug that phone line also! Edwin |
#13
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Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: "Edwin" Date: 8/23/2004 9:21 PM Pacific Standard Time Little ****y tonight there aren't we Art? Better call the nurse for some more medication. Have her unplug that phone line also! Edwin And your battle credentials were...? Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#14
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I said half the things Kramer has I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the
mirror to shave. You still can't Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#15
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"ArtKramr" wrote in message ... I said half the things Kramer has I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror to shave. You still can't Another sad piece of evidence supporting the theory that many people regress to childlike behavior when they enter their senior years. Arthur Kramer |
#16
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Does Art know that he has become a very sad parody of himself? Does he know
that his behavior on this news group would be extremely hilarious were it not for the slanderous remarks he makes to and about other veterans who served honorably for their country in all capacities? Does he know that by making such a complete ass of himself he denigrates the image of United States service men and women who are currently serving? Didn't think so. Jack G. "Kevin Brooks" wrote in message ... "ArtKramr" wrote in message ... I said half the things Kramer has I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror to shave. You still can't Another sad piece of evidence supporting the theory that many people regress to childlike behavior when they enter their senior years. Arthur Kramer |
#17
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"ArtKramr" wrote in message ... Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground. From: (BUFDRVR) Date: 8/23/2004 4:13 PM Pacific Standard Time In 1937, with career Army Air Corps crews, over Arizona with little wind it worked great! In 1943 with crews that had been in service 18 months, over Germany with flak and fighters...not so well. How the hell would you know? And how would YOU know, Art? You wren't flying in 1937. Nor were you flying in B-17's at all. Looks like yet another example of Art's hypocracy. He even called himself on it in a previous post: "Let's suppose you hav never been laid but want to know what it is like. So you buy every book and read them carefully. Now you know. You feel quite expert even though you have never actually been laid. But one day you meet a guy who has been laid and he tells you what it is like. But you are outraged. That is not what it said in the books. This guy is obviously a fraud, He knows nothing and you have the books to prove it. And these books are written by expertss on sex. So you know best. Now lets take war, Yu have never been to war but read lot of books, reports etc so you feel you really have it all down cold. Then you meet a guy who has actually been to war and what he tells you doesn't agree with what you read. So obviously this guy who has been to war knows nothing while you who have never been to was know everything. You accuse him of lying and call him a fraud. Maybe you need to do two things:" Except a two mile long train of B-17s looks like donuts rolling off the production line to an Me-109 pilot. We never flew in "long trains". What rinky dink air force were you in? Not ours for sure. Too bad you never fought in a real war. So Art, regale us with all of your B-17 experiences. Whats that? You never flew in B-17's? Then your opinion is worth spit. |
#18
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In article , BUFDRVR
writes Dave Eadsforth wrote: However, how did the formation attack compare with say a long string of B17s in trail, each aiming individually? In 1937, with career Army Air Corps crews, over Arizona with little wind it worked great! In 1943 with crews that had been in service 18 months, over Germany with flak and fighters...not so well. The formation attack must be all or nothing, whereas the trail attack must result in a number of well-aimed drops amongst the average ones. Except a two mile long train of B-17s looks like donuts rolling off the production line to an Me-109 pilot. Whoops - night time is not the best time for me to formulate a detailed question! I realise I said individual B17s (ouch!). What I meant to ask about was a tactic I read about a while ago where Combat Wings would shake out into individual Groups in trail at IP when a concentration of bombs was required for a particular target. Are there any analyses of the effectiveness of a succession of waves of Combat Wings over the target versus a succession of formations of bombers broken down into individual Groups? If someone could give me a thumbnail sketch of how a series of B17 Combat Wings usually approached a target, and what specific options for attack were possible between the IP and the RP I would be very grateful. Many thanks in advance, Dave BUFDRVR "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips everyone on Bear Creek" Cheers, Dave -- Dave Eadsforth |
#20
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ArtKramr wrote: In 1937, with career Army Air Corps crews, over Arizona with little wind it worked great! In 1943 with crews that had been in service 18 months, over Germany with flak and fighters...not so well. How the hell would you know? Except a two mile long train of B-17s looks like donuts rolling off the production line to an Me-109 pilot. We never flew in "long trains". What rinky dink air force were you in? Not ours for sure. Too bad you never fought in a real war. Arthur Kramer Good grief Art, read what he said! Dave |
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