Pilot runs out of fuel waiting for security clearance

Jay Masino wrote:

Bitching at our elected officials is our ONLY recourse.

I could be mistaken, but I think the previous point might have
been that bitching on USENET, while possibly therapeutic, has
no practical effect.

I agree that contacting elected officials is our only recourse.

I've been wanting to know for some time what AOPA is doing
in this fight. I'm wondering if it's time for a member barrage
of mail to congresscritters, demanding that the restrictions
be removed or that equally onerous restrictions be imposed upon
drivers and movements of trucks (a proven al-Quaida method
of bomb delivery)


And there isn't
another side of the debate. The government's side is baseless (atleast
to the extent that the threat from a Ryder truck is more of a threat than
GA).

Not to mention that it's unclear the ADIZ would prevent someone
bent on harm from violating it and completing their mission prior
to interception.

You mentioned that the DC-3 situation is different than what has been
described by the NOTAMS, by the AOPA, and in other postings. But you have
yet to actually make any actual statements that would demonstrate or
substantiate that the DC-3 pilots are not able to find a way to fly if
the really choose to. For example, even pilots who choose not to succumb
to the new security procedures, from my perception, could drive to the
next closest airport.

Actually, if you want to avoid both the FRZ and the ADIZ, you'd probably
have to drive an hour and a half to either Easton, Fredrick or Warrenton
(depending on where you live).

I think it's worth mentioning that DC traffic, and the amount of time
it takes to get from Point A to Point B, can be unimaginable except
to people who live near LA, Seattle, NYC and Boston.

I can't quite manage any cheer on this post . As I see it, the
degree of inconvenience the pilots in the DC gulag suffer is pretty
much beside the point. They are being unreasononably restricted in
their right to travel, for no clear reason and no clear result.
A dangerous precedent IMO.

Sydney

There are 39 TFR's this morning at 0700 when I checked them so I could
legally go flying, with one other reported but not displayed (ahaaa, I knew
it was bound to happen - TFR incognito)....
And it is fine that they only cover some fraction of 1% of the airspace,
unless it happens to be your airspace/airport, and your business is
bankrupt, and Admiral Loy giveth not a tinkers damn...

shamelessly cribbed from the web
You may have seen this before. It was written by Martin Niemoller about what
happened in Germany in the 1930s.

"They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't
a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unions, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't
a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a
Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one to speak up."

Denny



"Sydney Hoeltzli" wrote in message
...
Captain Wubba wrote:

Come on Pete. As much as we complain, how much is really different
from September 1, 2001? Looking at a graphical TFR map of the US, it
appears that well over 99.9% of US airspace is *not* restricted any

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message ...
There are 39 TFR's this morning at 0700 when I checked them so I could
legally go flying, with one other reported but not displayed (ahaaa, I knew
it was bound to happen - TFR incognito)....
And it is fine that they only cover some fraction of 1% of the airspace,
unless it happens to be your airspace/airport, and your business is
bankrupt, and Admiral Loy giveth not a tinkers damn...

shamelessly cribbed from the web
You may have seen this before. It was written by Martin Niemoller about what
happened in Germany in the 1930s.

"They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't
a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unions, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't
a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a
Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one to speak up."

Denny

Absolutely. But this isn't the only threat to GA. Avgas is $2.80 a
gallon! That isn't fair! We should do something about that! And
Insurance costs a fortune! And that isn't fair! We should do something
about that! And a new airplane costs $200,000! And that isn't fair! We
should do something about that! And I can't do aerobatics 3 miles from
the REILs of 36L at CVG! That isn't fair! It's a restriction on my
rights! We should do something about that!.

I'm not saying that we should simply let *everything* bad that happens
to GA go unchallenged. Don't know where you got that. But I *am*
saying we need to use discretion in what we do and what we fight for.
The scumbags on 9/11 used *airplanes* as their weapons. And fair or
not, there will be restrictions because of a public backlash against
that. No way around it. The only way to deal with it is to show (over
time) how beneficial GA is, and to attack the more egregious problems,
and pick our fights. You can't fight over everything.

It's like anyhing else. A 2% unemployment rate is fantastic...unless
you are one of that 2%. A 99% cure rate for cancer would be amazing!
Unless you are in that 1% that dies. It's unfortunate that the 0.1% of
restricted airspace affects people. But it's still 0.1% of all the
airspace we have. It's bad if the 0.5% of restricted airpors affects
you. But it's still only 0.5%. One has to keep perspective.

I'll certainly speak up..I'm not waiting until they come for me. But
speaking up against the DC-3 restrictions is different from going for
broke over the stadium TFRs. I'm picking what I want to fight for.

Cheers,

Cap





"Sydney Hoeltzli" wrote in message
...
Captain Wubba wrote:

Come on Pete. As much as we complain, how much is really different
from September 1, 2001? Looking at a graphical TFR map of the US, it
appears that well over 99.9% of US airspace is *not* restricted any

In the US the only real choices at the presidential level are
Democrats and Republicans

Unfortunately, it only seems that way because most people don't think other
parties stand a chance. However, I think as more people get fed up with
personal liberties (and incomes) getting gobbled up by government, more will
seriously consider alternatives.

Check out www.lp.org if you have a few minutes.

Gently extracted from the mind of John Harlow;


In the US the only real choices at the presidential level are
Democrats and Republicans

Unfortunately, it only seems that way because most people don't think other
parties stand a chance. However, I think as more people get fed up with
personal liberties (and incomes) getting gobbled up by government, more will
seriously consider alternatives.

Check out www.lp.org if you have a few minutes.

The Republicans would be in bad shape if they lost 300,000 votes to the
Libertarian Party. There is a suspision that the LP cost the GOP a couple of
senate seats in the 2002 elections.




-ash
for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX

In the US the only real choices at the presidential level are
Democrats and Republicans

Unfortunately, it only seems that way because most people don't think
other
parties stand a chance. However, I think as more people get fed up with
personal liberties (and incomes) getting gobbled up by government, more
will
seriously consider alternatives.

Check out www.lp.org if you have a few minutes.

The Republicans would be in bad shape if they lost 300,000 votes to the
Libertarian Party. There is a suspision that the LP cost the GOP a couple
of
senate seats in the 2002 elections.

Thank goodness. At least a flicker of hope exists for a rational
government.

"Two Party System: A brilliant illusion craftily manufactured to give voters
the feeling of choice; choosing between the parties is like choosing between
being slapped with the front or the back of the hand. " - Mark Driver

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 11:04:33 -0400, John Harlow wrote:

In the US the only real choices at the presidential level are Democrats
and Republicans

Unfortunately, it only seems that way because most people don't think
other parties stand a chance. However, I think as more people get fed up
with personal liberties (and incomes) getting gobbled up by government,
more will seriously consider alternatives.

Check out www.lp.org if you have a few minutes.

Have you ever heard about Harry Browne? The same dick who grabbed
control of Libertarian party and turned it into his pocket toy.
It has nothing to with libertarians now.

The most important thing about alternative parties you should know
is that they are populated with and governed by political rejects who
have a lot of ambition but no ability to make it in life (that is,
in the two majors). This is the reason they keep losing, BTW.

-- Pete

Sydney Hoeltzli wrote:
"Hey, doesn't affect me, bro! Why should I sweat unreasonable
restictions on YOUR freedom, ain't bothering ME?"
Standard reaction from non-pilots. Sad to see it from a fellow
flier.

Actually, after listening to some of the pilots on this newsgroup, from
other parts of the country, that's actually the reaction that these
pilot's give, as long as it's not effecting THEIR part of the country.

-- Jay

__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino/ ! ! !

Checkout http://www.oc-adolfos.com/
for the best Italian food in Ocean City, MD and...
Checkout http://www.brolow.com/ for authentic Blues music on Delmarva

Sydney Hoeltzli wrote:
I could be mistaken, but I think the previous point might have
been that bitching on USENET, while possibly therapeutic, has
no practical effect.

Yea, you're probably right, although, bitching on USENET keeps the
non-effected pilots on USENET paying attention to the problem.

-- Jay

__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino/ ! ! !

Checkout http://www.oc-adolfos.com/
for the best Italian food in Ocean City, MD and...
Checkout http://www.brolow.com/ for authentic Blues music on Delmarva

"Sydney Hoeltzli" wrote in message
...
Not to mention that it's unclear the ADIZ would prevent someone
bent on harm from violating it and completing their mission prior
to interception.

Well, in fact I think it's pretty clear that the ADIZ would NOT prevent
someone bent on harm from violating it and completing their missing prior to
interception. Especially if they were flying an airplane capable of actual
harm.

I think it's worth mentioning that DC traffic, and the amount of time
it takes to get from Point A to Point B, can be unimaginable except
to people who live near LA, Seattle, NYC and Boston.

I have to admit that, as bad as traffic *seems* here in Seattle, driving
around here isn't anything like driving around DC, LA, NYC, or Boston. I
have the most experience in DC, but have driven in all of those metro areas.
Even without traffic, in DC it was "no big deal" to travel 45 to 60 minutes
to get somewhere (driving from one DC suburb to another one on the other
side of the Beltway), and traffic could easily add 30 to 60 minutes to that
(longer if you were dealing with construction or an accident).

Here in the Seattle area, granted we do have a high degree of congestion per
highway mile, but the truth is we're not all that spread out yet. The worst
backups add only 15-20 minutes to a trip, and we're not usually driving
45-60 minutes to get somewhere in the first place. Without traffic, a 30
minute trip is a long one, at least within the Seattle metro area.

I don't even know why I mention it, except that I feel a bit guilty allowing
us to be lumped in with the other cities that really DO have it bad.

I can't quite manage any cheer on this post . As I see it, the
degree of inconvenience the pilots in the DC gulag suffer is pretty
much beside the point. They are being unreasononably restricted in
their right to travel, for no clear reason and no clear result.
A dangerous precedent IMO.

No question. IMHO, it's not just the aviation restrictions. The whole
country is being swept by a taking of rights, with a side of "if you
complain, you're un-American" to go with it. Bad news all 'round.

Pete