Thermal right, land left

On 3/15/04 6:15 AM, in article ,
"Ben Flewett" wrote:

...[Schumacher's and Barrichello's] 'Mine is bigger than yours' attitude
is ruining Formula One [and] John Coutts' (top ranked glider pilot in the
World)...has 'too much money and not enough character'.

As might easily have been anticipated, you have taken the egoist's approach
to my remarks concerning unwarranted criticisms of the PW-5 and of the World
Class concept. A F1 Ferrari is as unsuited to the Baja off-road race as an
ASW 27b is to the World Class. It would be irrational to think otherwise,
no?

If one chooses not to fly a PW-5 because the level of competition of which
one is capable requires a mount far more esoteric, then by all means choose
the more suitable ship. But that hardly justifies the near hatred expressed
here towards the PW-5. The PW-5 has its place. The fact that it has not been
universally adopted says more, I believe, about the psychology of the
sailplane enthusiast than it does about the capabilities of the aircraft.


Are you honestly suggesting that people should WANT
to sell their beautiful German sailplanes and buy PW5s?

I'm suggesting (and I wonder why you are not) that I couldn't care less what
aircraft someone chooses to fly, but only about how well they fly it, and
ultimately what I might learn from them (and about them) in the process.


Have you ever flown a glider?

Certainly, though not well enough and not often enough -- do you suppose
that is the glider's fault?



Jack

Bruce,
Are you referring to a Standard Cirrus or the Open version ? If it is
a Standard, the force to open the airbrakes from locked position
should be set at about 20 Kg (44 lb force). With this unlock
requirement, I don't think just rubbing your arm along the lever would
unlock the brakes.
Cheers, John G. (Std Cirrus #672)

"Bruce Greeff" wrote in message
...
I'm so tight in my Cirrus I can inadvertently open the airbrakes by
moving my
left arm back.

There is enough friction between my arm and the actuator to overcome
the
geometric lock.

Quite exciting when you do that on your first single seater launch
in a Cirrus
on a winch...

Uri Saovray wrote:
Sure, but that doesn't take care of INADVERTENT opening of the
spoilers. Examples: weak geometric lock + some turbulence;
Dual-command + some confusion in the other seat; You can probably
think of more examples...
Uri

Pete Zeugma wrote in
message ...

At 22:18 14 March 2004, Uri Saovray wrote:

Speaking of simple warning devices:
How about a simple hookup to a horn which is activated
when the
airbrakes are opened while the towhook is engaged (i.e.
open spoilers
during tow)?
A microswitch on the airbrake levers would be the no-brainer
part.
What about the towhook? Magnetic sensor? where? How?




Other ideas?


how about the last 'B' in CB-SIFT-CB i've always found
it to be a no-brainer personally, and its completely
free! Usually accompanied by the guy who attaches the
towrope/cable saying that phrase 'brakes closed and
locked?'

At 07:30 16 March 2004, Pete Zeugma wrote:

Actually, my train of thought is just to use good airmanship,
which is free and widely available to everyone, if
they can be bothered!

What a simple and thought provoking statement. I agree

We now seem to be advocating warnings and buzzers for
every eventuality. This is a list of the sounds a pilot
is expected to cope with if everyones idea are translated
into reality, it may not be complete..........

Under carriage
Flaps
Stall alert (2 one for each wing tip)
Tail dolly
Low battery
Canopy
Main Pin
G Meter
Spoiler alert
Aircraft Proximity alarm (only good if everyone has
one fitted)

Add a few more from the motor trade

Tyre pressure alert
Brake pad wear alert

Add to this one essential noise

Vario

And a few helpful ones

Radio
GPS alerts
Turn point alerts
Approaching airspace alerts on nav aides

There could be a competition for the pilot who could
play the best tune in a circuit. Most pilots have
enough to content with looking after the basics.

Concentration should be on good airmanship to prevent
the mistakes not devising instruments to detect faulty
airmanship, thus adding further distractions and workload
when the alarm bells start sounding.

Just imagine when a buzzer that you haven't for several
months starts sounding, and you then have to cycle
all the alarms to try to detect which one it is, crash............
..........

Dave

At 20:42 15 March 2004, Eric Greenwell wrote:
pilots that don't even fly them, such as myself (I
fly an 18
m motorglider).

Eric,

Thanks very much. You have illustrated the whole problem
with the concept of the World Class beautifully.

A bunch of noisy psuedo-philanthropists sitting around
praising the pros of the World Class when they havent
even flown, yet alone competed in the class and judging
by your glider choice (I am presuming an ASH-26e) have
absolutely no intention to.

Owain

Libelle H201 - more performance than a PW5 and half
the price.

Confused Jack wrote:

'As might easily have been anticipated, you have taken
the egoist's approach to my remarks concerning unwarranted
criticisms of the PW-5 and of the World Class concept.
'

'I'm suggesting (and I wonder why you are not) that
I couldn't care less what aircraft someone chooses
to fly, but only about how well they fly it, and ultimately
what I might learn from them (and about them) in the
process.'


OK, just one more time...

I DON'T HATE THE PW5. I DON'T HATE THE WORLD CLASS
CONCEPT. IN FACT, I THINK IT'S A GREAT IDEA WHICH
IS WHY I ORIGINALLY POSTED ON THIS SITE.

The PW5 has its place in the world and if people want
to fly them - why would I care? Yes, I believe the
PW5 does not represent value for money but I don’t
care if others disagree. However, it would appear
that only 300 people disagree which is not enough to
make an international class. What I do care about
is THE SELECTION OF THE PW5 FOR THE WORLD CLASS GLIDER.

The World Class is an excellent concept and I wish
it were the most popular class in gliding. However,
as a movement we made a bad selection for the World
Class glider which, as discussed, has led to the failure
of the class. I am raising for discussion the concept
of changing the PW5 for a glider that more people will
want to fly so we can have a successful World Class.


We have a problem in that we have committed to the
PW5 until 2009 but perhaps there is something that
can be done here - some suggestions have already been
made as a result of this discussion.

Ben.


At 07:48 16 March 2004, Jack wrote:
On 3/15/04 6:15 AM, in article -b
erlin.de,
'Ben Flewett' wrote:

...[Schumacher's and Barrichello's] 'Mine is bigger
than yours' attitude
is ruining Formula One [and] John Coutts' (top ranked
glider pilot in the
World)...has 'too much money and not enough character'.

As might easily have been anticipated, you have taken
the egoist's approach
to my remarks concerning unwarranted criticisms of
the PW-5 and of the World
Class concept. A F1 Ferrari is as unsuited to the Baja
off-road race as an
ASW 27b is to the World Class. It would be irrational
to think otherwise,
no?

If one chooses not to fly a PW-5 because the level
of competition of which
one is capable requires a mount far more esoteric,
then by all means choose
the more suitable ship. But that hardly justifies the
near hatred expressed
here towards the PW-5. The PW-5 has its place. The
fact that it has not been
universally adopted says more, I believe, about the
psychology of the
sailplane enthusiast than it does about the capabilities
of the aircraft.


Are you honestly suggesting that people should WANT
to sell their beautiful German sailplanes and buy
PW5s?

I'm suggesting (and I wonder why you are not) that
I couldn't care less what
aircraft someone chooses to fly, but only about how
well they fly it, and
ultimately what I might learn from them (and about
them) in the process.


Have you ever flown a glider?

Certainly, though not well enough and not often enough
-- do you suppose
that is the glider's fault?



Jack

Hi Uri,

The solution for a warning on air brakes unlocked prior to take off is quite
easy. Use a micro switch on the air brake handle and a pressure transducer
from a washing machine in series.
The pressure transducer is connected to Ptot with a restictor in the line.
The restrictor together with the volume of the pressure transducer will
cause a delay of several seconds before full Ptot is noticed.
The pressure transducer switches at about 80 km/h for increasing pressure
(at take off) and at about 40 km/h for decreasing pressure (after landing).
I use the same idea in the warning system of our new glider. Have a look at
http://home.wxs.nl/~kpt9/gear.htm , figure 5.

Karel, NL



"Uri Saovray" schreef in bericht
om...
So if we agree this is a good idea, my main question is the design of
the tow sensor:
1) It must be robust
2) It must not interfere with the hook mechanism (open spoilers AND
can't release???)
3) If it is magnetic - will it interfere with the compass? Does
anybody care?
4) A Large magnet at the end of the tow rope - will it survive the
fall to the ground (either on winch or from the tug
Ideas?

Uri
Eric Greenwell wrote in message
...
Uri Saovray wrote:
Speaking of simple warning devices:
How about a simple hookup to a horn which is activated when the
airbrakes are opened while the towhook is engaged (i.e. open spoilers
during tow)?
A microswitch on the airbrake levers would be the no-brainer part.
What about the towhook? Magnetic sensor? where? How? Other ideas?
Uri

This would be an easy addition to the typical gear warning system, with
the new switch simply over-riding the gear switch. Fixed gear gliders
would need to add a spoiler switch and warning buzzer.

Pilots concerned about warning proliferation could consider using a
voice chip to speak "Spoilers" and "Gear" for the two alerts, instead of
a buzzer. Voice chips are cheap and simple to use these days.

Pete,
Of course you are right about airmanship, etc. Same goes for almost
any other warning system. The fact is that this has happened too many
times, and I have seen it happening to people who's airmanship I DO
respect.
So IMHO, the next question is: If it's cheap and simple enough, why
not???
Uri

Pete Zeugma wrote in message ...
At 19:12 15 March 2004, Bruce Greeff wrote:
I'm so tight in my Cirrus I can inadvertently open
the airbrakes by moving my
left arm back.

sure you're not over the max loading of it to then?
ever thought of checking it more often since you know
that you can open it so easily, or even having the
overlock adjusted a bit tighter than your fit!

Interesting discussion this World Class / PW5 thing!
Problem as I see it is:
1) the vast majority of people can only afford one
glider (if that).
2) Competion pilots only spend a small amount of their
total gliding time actually competeing in official
comps.
3) Most of us like to spend our XC time flying with
others around the same task, whether for company or
sport.

So for the comp pilot who fits in with 1, 2 and 3 which
most I believe do, the choice of machine is dictated
by the performance of their peer groups gliders (not
necessarily ego's)

So, If I wanted to fly world class for 2 weeks a year
I would have to buy a PW5 rather than say an ASW20
and accept that I would loose out on a large amount
of fun for the other 50 weeks of the year.

I also can't help feeling we already have single design
comps! Look at the entries in any Stardard, 15mtr,
18mtr Nationals and whilst the badges may be different
on the gliders, the relative performance isn't.

Now for real fun we ought to take all national champions
from all countries and all classes. Put them in PW5's
and let them fight it out for a single, true World
Champion. That would be a comp to watch!

David H

.......Because it breeds relience on some gadget, rather
than making a simple sequence of checks as instinctive
and natural as breathing.

I got into the habit long ago of leaving my last check,
the airbrakes, to last. I call cable on, and in response
to 'brakes closed and locked' I open them and close
them, and to the resounding thud of the overlock engaging
I say '...and locked!'
Thats how I was taught at our club.

............Probably the only alarm I would fit would
be to alert you that the undercarridge lever has been
moved off detent when on the ground. There is always
some idiot who will fiddle with your glider when parked
up, but then the canopy lock solved that one.

At 12:06 16 March 2004, Uri Saovray wrote:
Pete,
Of course you are right about airmanship, etc. Same
goes for almost
any other warning system. The fact is that this has
happened too many
times, and I have seen it happening to people who's
airmanship I DO
respect.
So IMHO, the next question is: If it's cheap and simple
enough, why
not???
Uri

Pete Zeugma wrote in message news:...
At 19:12 15 March 2004, Bruce Greeff wrote:
I'm so tight in my Cirrus I can inadvertently open
the airbrakes by moving my
left arm back.

sure you're not over the max loading of it to then?
ever thought of checking it more often since you know
that you can open it so easily, or even having the
overlock adjusted a bit tighter than your fit!

Absolutely correct. The point that has been missed
in all this is that having a warning device fitted
breeds reliance on that warning. If you don't believe
that consult Pavlov. The problem comes when the warning
device fails because the battery is flat or the electricity
can't bridge the air gap. Can you not hear the plaintive
cry 'Well I thought it was working, the warning did
not sound' or perhaps worse, 'Spinning, I can't have
been, there was no warning buzzer' There is no substitute
for paying attention, concentration and above all airmanship.
Does anyone want to rely on a microswitch cost a few
pence to keep them alive?

At 13:00 16 March 2004, Pete Zeugma wrote:
.......Because it breeds relience on some gadget, rather
than making a simple sequence of checks as instinctive
and natural as breathing.

I got into the habit long ago of leaving my last check,
the airbrakes, to last. I call cable on, and in response
to 'brakes closed and locked' I open them and close
them, and to the resounding thud of the overlock engaging
I say '...and locked!'
Thats how I was taught at our club.

............Probably the only alarm I would fit would
be to alert you that the undercarridge lever has been
moved off detent when on the ground. There is always
some idiot who will fiddle with your glider when parked
up, but then the canopy lock solved that one.

At 12:06 16 March 2004, Uri Saovray wrote:
Pete,
Of course you are right about airmanship, etc. Same
goes for almost
any other warning system. The fact is that this has
happened too many
times, and I have seen it happening to people who's
airmanship I DO
respect.
So IMHO, the next question is: If it's cheap and simple
enough, why
not???
Uri

Pete Zeugma wrote in message news:...
At 19:12 15 March 2004, Bruce Greeff wrote:
I'm so tight in my Cirrus I can inadvertently open
the airbrakes by moving my
left arm back.

sure you're not over the max loading of it to then?
ever thought of checking it more often since you know
that you can open it so easily, or even having the
overlock adjusted a bit tighter than your fit!