Thermal right, land left

I think Eric was suggesting he'd be competeitive flying
an LS4 if the others were still flying PW5s

:-)

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...
Jon Meyer wrote:

Are you therefore saying that the world class must
have less than 15m span just so that it cannot be construed
as being equivalent to one of the existing classes?

No, I'm saying it must be smaller to be cheaper. Bigger costs money.

It is my understanding that the wingspan was driven by the desire to keep
open the homebuilding option and 13 meter wings will fit in a typical US
garage but 15 meters won't. Given that only one World Class Glider has been
homebuilt (and that by the person on the comittee who championed the cause
of preserving the homebuilding option), homebuilding doesn't seem to be a
meaningful requirement.

As the cliche goes, "If you want to build, build. If you want to fly, buy"

While shorter wings are probably cheaper, what really costs a lot of money
are small production runs.

Would an LS-4-like 15 meter ship attract more folks to the World Class?
Probably.
Would it attract enough to make a difference? Probably not.
Reason? Switching costs. Most of us can't afford 2 ships. If I already
have an ASW-20 or a 303, or an LS-3, or a DG200, or, or, or... to get into
the World Class I'd be trading like for like. Why do that? The only upside
being competing in a single class--but that's likely what I do already (more
or less) via Sports or Club class.

My opinion is that the fundamental problem of the World Class lies in the
population of glider pilots. Several hundred people, some small but
meaningful % of glider pilots, bought PW5s. Many that I know of were bought
by fairly new pilots and clubs--exactly the right target. Only problem was
that % multiplied by the pilot population was too small to yeild a viable
pool of contestants. Not really the fault of the ship's performance,
design, price, or anything other than market size and target profile.

Brent

Jim, if you go that route, build the strain gauge to display the hook
tension to the pilot for the purposes of flying a winch launch.


Good thought Bill, but I think it require at least two strain gauges to
implement this. Since the direction of the load changes during the course of
the winch launch, the load could not be measured by just one strain gauge. Two
are needed to provide the raw data to the instrument. Then, you need to do a
complete calibration of the system to determine the load ratios for various
angles and tensions since these are not readily calculatable. Then you need to
program a CPU accordingly.

Just a simple load / no load determination is far easier.

IMHO, regarding tension values during a winch launch, I've driven hundreds of
winch launches and believe the only value of a tension meter is to tell you if
you're approaching the breaking force of the cable/rope. The feedback from
engine noise, spool speed, glider pitch attitude, etc are far more valuable to
me when winching.

Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ
illspam

The problem here is, no matter how well argued your position that the
PW-5 should be replaced as the world class glider, you've got a group
of people who've invested alot in these things, and if you take away
the World Class designation their resale value goes off a cliff. I
mean, the PW-5 stands out as a poor performer even among other sub-15m
ships, and they know it. Whenever you see a debate over the PW-5 vs.
Russia, or PW-5 vs. Sparrowhawk, or whatever, the PW5er's always end
up invoking the World Class designation as their ace in the hole.

This group of financially interested PW-5 supporters may not be large
enough to form a viable international racing class, but they are large
enough to stand as a roadblock in the way of an improved World Class
in the future.


Ben Flewett wrote in message ...
Confused Jack wrote:

OK, just one more time...

I DON'T HATE THE PW5. I DON'T HATE THE WORLD CLASS
CONCEPT. IN FACT, I THINK IT'S A GREAT IDEA WHICH
IS WHY I ORIGINALLY POSTED ON THIS SITE.

The PW5 has its place in the world and if people want
to fly them - why would I care? Yes, I believe the
PW5 does not represent value for money but I don?t
care if others disagree. However, it would appear
that only 300 people disagree which is not enough to
make an international class. What I do care about
is THE SELECTION OF THE PW5 FOR THE WORLD CLASS GLIDER.

The World Class is an excellent concept and I wish
it were the most popular class in gliding. However,
as a movement we made a bad selection for the World
Class glider which, as discussed, has led to the failure
of the class. I am raising for discussion the concept
of changing the PW5 for a glider that more people will
want to fly so we can have a successful World Class.


We have a problem in that we have committed to the
PW5 until 2009 but perhaps there is something that
can be done here - some suggestions have already been
made as a result of this discussion.

Ben.

"Jim Vincent" wrote in message
...
Jim, if you go that route, build the strain gauge to display the hook
tension to the pilot for the purposes of flying a winch launch.


Good thought Bill, but I think it require at least two strain gauges to
implement this. Since the direction of the load changes during the course
of
the winch launch, the load could not be measured by just one strain gauge.
Two
are needed to provide the raw data to the instrument. Then, you need to
do a
complete calibration of the system to determine the load ratios for
various
angles and tensions since these are not readily calculatable. Then you
need to
program a CPU accordingly.

Just a simple load / no load determination is far easier.

IMHO, regarding tension values during a winch launch, I've driven hundreds
of
winch launches and believe the only value of a tension meter is to tell
you if
you're approaching the breaking force of the cable/rope. The feedback
from
engine noise, spool speed, glider pitch attitude, etc are far more
valuable to
me when winching.

Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ
illspam

I was thinking that the winch driver would see the glider airspeed via
telemetry and thus control it precisely and the pilot would control the
tension with a panel mounted meter. That way the pilot gets the right
airspeed and precisely loads the glider and cable to whatever value he feels
comfortable with up to the breaking strength of the weak link.

Bill Daniels

So, If I wanted to fly world class for 2 weeks a year
I would have to buy a PW5 rather than say an ASW20
and accept that I would loose out on a large amount
of fun for the other 50 weeks of the year.

Guess you havent heard of hiring huh :-)


Now for real fun we ought to take all national champions
from all countries and all classes. Put them in PW5's
and let them fight it out for a single, true World
Champion. That would be a comp to watch!

Its sorta been done.
The first World Class Worlds in Turkey.....
Included a number of National champs as well as world champs!


43 pilots from 23 nations - among them two women - competed in the
contest.
Among the competitors were very experienced pilots - e.g. three former
World Champions -but also pilots with lesser experience. Astonishingly
the former World Champions ended on the places 8, 13 and 14.

........
http://members.lycos.co.uk/steve_smyk/ go to 1st World
Championship for results

So now perhaps you might understand while the "eletist" element dont
like PW5s.
They got their ASS KICKED by real pilots who were not relying on the
gliders performance to do the work :-)

Have seen the same reaction amongst other so called "Gun" pilots who
get wacked at PW5 level. ie its a crap aircraft etc etc.

As always "Dear Reader" you will probably feed your own prejudices :-)

I guess the result had nothing to do with team flying?
Just luck that the first two pilots where the French team?
It proves that its hard to compete against a well organised team with alot
of resources.
Isn't that going against the World Class ethos. That the best man wins?


"Going fer it" wrote in message
om...
So, If I wanted to fly world class for 2 weeks a year
I would have to buy a PW5 rather than say an ASW20
and accept that I would loose out on a large amount
of fun for the other 50 weeks of the year.

Guess you havent heard of hiring huh :-)


Now for real fun we ought to take all national champions
from all countries and all classes. Put them in PW5's
and let them fight it out for a single, true World
Champion. That would be a comp to watch!

Its sorta been done.
The first World Class Worlds in Turkey.....
Included a number of National champs as well as world champs!


43 pilots from 23 nations - among them two women - competed in the
contest.
Among the competitors were very experienced pilots - e.g. three former
World Champions -but also pilots with lesser experience. Astonishingly
the former World Champions ended on the places 8, 13 and 14.

.......
http://members.lycos.co.uk/steve_smyk/ go to 1st World
Championship for results

So now perhaps you might understand while the "eletist" element dont
like PW5s.
They got their ASS KICKED by real pilots who were not relying on the
gliders performance to do the work :-)

Have seen the same reaction amongst other so called "Gun" pilots who
get wacked at PW5 level. ie its a crap aircraft etc etc.

As always "Dear Reader" you will probably feed your own prejudices :-)

Tony Verhulst wrote:

This is a good point. The Skylane that I own a small piece of has a horn
that sounds about 10 kts before the actual stall - and as such, is
pretty useless, IMHO.

I've had the horn in a Cezzna save me twice. Both times
at max gross, once on takeoff on a hot day, once on a night
IFR missed approach. I didn't think it could happen to
me. It did. Four people are alive and well because somebody
decided a stall horn was a good idea. I'd like to find that
guy, thank him, and buy him dinner.

The excellent point that an AOA indicator is the simplest and
most effective way to detect oncoming stall was very well
pointed out by the poster who mentioned ballast. Very different
airspeeds with ballast vs. without, and not something easily
computed. Wind shear is another circumstance where AOA indications
are much faster and easier to interpret than airspeed and/or pitch.
There are some dusk wind shear glider fatalities where I believe an
AOA or stall horn would have saved the day.

Dick Johnson feels that a properly designed stall warning works in
gliders. He knows more than I.

I agree.

I did have a twinge from the poster who said like
pavlov's dog, one can become reliant on the horn. Then if it
fails, one is out of luck. I dunno, I guess having the horn
go off a bunch of times and doing the right thing is
cheaper than hiring an instructor. Maybe one can learn
enough along the way so that when the horn fails, one can still
avoid the stall...

Still, the Pavlov comment was a good one and got me thinking...

In a power plane, checking the stall horn is part of (most)
preflights. Most power planes require a stall horn as part of
the type certification. I suppose you could check it as a
mandatory part of the pre-flight in a glider too, and perhaps
use a "harmonica" style so it didn't use electrics.

Or use the string AOA idea. I'd like to see this work. I'm
not so keen on having something else the pilot has to
LOOK at (vs. hearing). But who knows, and it's a fun
experiment...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Cliff Hilty wrote:
At 13:24 16 March 2004, Tony Verhulst wrote:
'This is a good point. The Skylane that I own a small
piece of has a horn that sounds about 10 kts before
the actual stall - and as such, is pretty useless,

Tony
I fly power too and I have to disagree with you. The
stall warning is of great input to me. I want it to

Cessna part # 0713348-1 Stall Warning Horn (harmonica type)
$13.09

I wonder about the dimensions (curvature), and how hard it would be
to put one on each wing of a 1-26?

I've had no experience with fiberglass, so I don't know
if this is practical for glass gliders...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:405766f7$1@darkstar...
Tony Verhulst wrote:

This is a good point. The Skylane that I own a small piece of has a horn
that sounds about 10 kts before the actual stall - and as such, is
pretty useless, IMHO.

I've had the horn in a Cezzna save me twice. Both times
at max gross, once on takeoff on a hot day, once on a night
IFR missed approach. I didn't think it could happen to
me. It did. Four people are alive and well because somebody
decided a stall horn was a good idea. I'd like to find that
guy, thank him, and buy him dinner.

The excellent point that an AOA indicator is the simplest and
most effective way to detect oncoming stall was very well
pointed out by the poster who mentioned ballast. Very different
airspeeds with ballast vs. without, and not something easily
computed. Wind shear is another circumstance where AOA indications
are much faster and easier to interpret than airspeed and/or pitch.
There are some dusk wind shear glider fatalities where I believe an
AOA or stall horn would have saved the day.

Dick Johnson feels that a properly designed stall warning works in
gliders. He knows more than I.

I agree.

I did have a twinge from the poster who said like
pavlov's dog, one can become reliant on the horn. Then if it
fails, one is out of luck. I dunno, I guess having the horn
go off a bunch of times and doing the right thing is
cheaper than hiring an instructor. Maybe one can learn
enough along the way so that when the horn fails, one can still
avoid the stall...

Still, the Pavlov comment was a good one and got me thinking...

In a power plane, checking the stall horn is part of (most)
preflights. Most power planes require a stall horn as part of
the type certification. I suppose you could check it as a
mandatory part of the pre-flight in a glider too, and perhaps
use a "harmonica" style so it didn't use electrics.

Or use the string AOA idea. I'd like to see this work. I'm
not so keen on having something else the pilot has to
LOOK at (vs. hearing). But who knows, and it's a fun
experiment...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

I'm not sure I buy the Pavlov argument. These are warning systems we are
talking about and, if the glider is flown the way it is supposed to be
flown, they will never be heard. They should sound only under extraordinary
circumstances when the pilots self-discipline has failed.

I'd be really concerned about a pilot who always waited for the gear horn
before remembering to put the gear down. I was always taught that if I hear
a warning horn, I've already screwed up. Strive to fly so you never hear
one. (Except for that dratted Cessna stall horn sounding in the flare.)

Bill Daniels