Todays Cost of getting a PPL

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...
I was not trying to scare anyone. I put down what I spent. I have been
lurking in this group and reading/posting to the student group for a
while,
this topic comes up from time to time. It seemed to be information
people
wanted to know. I tried to qualify the amount by clearly stating that I
included EVERYTHING. There are two previous posts that attempt to define
what I meant by everything. I am also not bitching about what I spent,
it
cost what it cost.

I know, but please make sure everyone knows that your experience is NOT
optimal, nor even typical. That's my only point in posting.

I thought I did, I clearly stated that it took me 2.5 years.

2. I got airsick during a lot of the early lessons, clarification - I
PUKED,
these lessons were not very informative.

Clearly! :-) And, as I said, I applaud your persistence. You let
nothing stop you, and that's the key to success -- in anything.


Thanks!

3. My instructor was out of town for some extended periods during
training.

This can be a real problem. Mary and I were lucky enough to be with
the same CFIs from start to finish (another advantage of
compressed-time training), and my guy owned the FBO, so he was ALWAYS
available.

I was not "fleeced" as you say. My flight school is very reasonably
priced,
my instructor was an honest man, who as far as I can tell really did not
need the $22 an hour or whatever portion of that he gets from the school.

You were not intentionally fleeced -- but you *were* fleeced. You spent
at least 100% more than average, and 150% more than necessary. I
don't know a better definition of "fleeced" than that.

From an online dictionary, the definition of fleeced -

fleeced, fleec·ing, fleec·es
1. To defraud of money or property; swindle.

To say I was fleeced implies one of two things:
1. Dishonesty on the part of my flight school/instructor.
2. Stupidity on my part.

Which one of these are you implying?


I do not think that coming in here and speaking honestly about my
experience
is a disservice to GA, as you put it. Pie in the sky estimates of a PPL
for
3500 bucks and flying 3 times a week, while holding down a full time job
and
raising kids is more of a disservice.

I did it. Anyone can do it. It just takes commitment.

You speaking honestly is definitely a service to everyone here, and I
don't want to imply otherwise. But don't expect everyone to just nod
sagely and say "Too bad" -- that's not the way it works here!

OK, see above and below. I will play for a while, but these UseNet
argumnets are usually unwinable by either party. :-)


:-)

Look at your number, seriously. The numbers thrown around in here for
plane
rental have ranged from 65 an hour wet for a c152 (that was me) up to 130
for a c172. Instructors have ranged from 22 to 40 an hour. Lets just do
some simple math.

20 hours dual at 110 an hour (80 for the plane and 30 for the instructor)
=
2200
20 hours solo at 80 and hour. = 1600

OK, we are at 3800, 300 more than your pie in the sky estimate.

My "pie in the sky estimate" was an actual number -- from 1994. As I
said, Mary's cost somewhat more, thanks to inflation (she got hers in
1997). I'm sure it's higher yet, now.

But it ain't 12 grand.

I never said it would cost everyone who goes for their PPL after me 12
grand. I said I spent 12 grand.


We still
have to get a medical, I think mine was 100.

You don't get an annual check up? Every other year?

I get one about every five years, my insurance pays for it. My GP is not
qualified to give FAA medical. Will insurance pay for a flight medical? If
so, I did not know it. At any rate, it was directly related to my flying so
I included it.


Books, charts, a headset,
plotter, e6b, A/FD, flight bag etc.

My first head set cost (I am not kidding) $7, used. My plotter, E6B
and flight bag were all used, mostly gifts. I've never owned an A/FD
-- just borrowed 'em.

Experiences differ, I had to buy mine.


We are also assuming that you have no
ground time with the instructor, you just get in the plane and fly. I
don't
know about you guys, but I had ground sessions with my instructor on
weather, FAR/AIM topics, night flying, aerodynamic principles etc. He
donated a lot of that time, but some of it is required and I had to pay
for
it.

My instructor never charged for ground time.

Mine charged for some of it, did not for some of it. But I included the time
I was charged.


The written test was 50 or 75, written study materials were 100 to 150.
Anyway, the point is you are over 3500 by a lot.

Not in 1994 dollars.

If you know a way I can spend 1994 dollars in 2006, please tell me. Or
better yet let me choose to spend 1900 dollars in 2006. Lets see, I go to
the Porsche dealer and tell them I want a 2007 911 Carrera, but I want to
pay for it in 1960 dollars. I wonder if that will work. Youre
rationalizing away cost here..

But I agree, if you can finish the ticket in 40 - 60 hours, the cost will be
much less than what I spent. But, I will repeat here that I was not
fleeced. I knew exactly what I was spending and why through the whole
process.

3 days of flying a week may be doable in the west, but here in N.
Alabama,
especially in the summertime, you get these huge black clouds a lot in
the
afternoons, you know the time after most people get off of work.

In Wisconsin, in the winter, we scrubbed a lot of flights. The trick
is to schedule 3 flights a week, and plan on making two of them.
Between scheduling conflicts, weather, mechanical issues, that's about
what it works out to.

I would schedule three, when I could. But we agree here, it was rare that
you would get all three of them for a multitude of reasons. I only did the
before work thing a couple of times, I am NOT a morning person. It was not
enjoyable so I did not do it anymore.


Anyway, I was not trying to scare anyone away. I was certainly not
bitching
about the cost. I put the information out there and was as honest as I
could be about what I spent.

I know, and that's why I said "No offense". I'm not faulting you for
posting -- I welcome it -- but I want everyone in this forum to know
that your experience is NOT typical, and that they can earn their wings
for less -- MUCH less.

I agree, and I tried to qualify what I posted by also giving the time frame,
number of hours flown and other realted information about my training.


Remember it is not a contest, I was not trying to get the cheapest
license
in the least amount of time of anyone else in the group, I just wanted to
learn how to fly and it was harder for me than for others.

And that is all that counts, in the end. We all tip our hats to you,
John -- you had a tough row to hoe, and made it through!

Thanks for that! Maybe I will make out to your hotel one day, it looks like
an interesting place to visit.

John

--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Or
better yet let me choose to spend 1900 dollars in 2006.

I'll let you do that with me. They have to be silver though.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

I know, but please make sure everyone knows that your experience is NOT
optimal, nor even typical.

I think "everybody" knows by now.

You were not intentionally fleeced -- but you *were* fleeced. You spent
at least 100% more than average, and 150% more than necessary. I
don't know a better definition of "fleeced" than that.

Fleecing, by definition, is intentional. He had good reasons to spemd
more than necessary. In fact, under his circumstances, it could be
argued that it =was= necessary to spend that much.

I did it. Anyone can do it. It just takes commitment.

He did it too. You spent (morning) time, he spent money. Who's to say
for another which is more valuable?

We still
have to get a medical, I think mine was 100.
You don't get an annual check up? Every other year?

How smart is it to get your annual checkup from your AME?

Remember, he didn't say it =had= to cost him that much. He said it
=did= cost him that much. That was the (total) amount he chose to spend.

When I got my license I didn't have to get up at 0-dark-thirty. You
did. There's more to it than money.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jay Honeck writes:

I know, but please make sure everyone knows that your experience is NOT
optimal, nor even typical. That's my only point in posting.

It may not be optimal, but I'm pretty certain it is typical. People
who like to fly are capable of great amounts of rationalization and
wishful thinking, and manage to write off a lot of the expense of
flying by trying to post it to other accounts. The total amount,
though, remains the same, no matter how it is hidden.

I did it. Anyone can do it. It just takes commitment.

No, it takes money.

You don't get an annual check up? Every other year?

Most people don't. And it doesn't necessarily cost $100.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

In article .com,
"Jay Honeck" wrote:

I was not "fleeced" as you say. My flight school is very reasonably priced,
my instructor was an honest man, who as far as I can tell really did not
need the $22 an hour or whatever portion of that he gets from the school.

You were not intentionally fleeced -- but you *were* fleeced. You spent
at least 100% more than average, and 150% more than necessary. I
don't know a better definition of "fleeced" than that.

Jay, please stop saying he was fleeced. As others have posted, he was
paying the going market rate. It just took him longer than it did you.
Some people can do it in 40 hours, some 100 hours, others anywhere
inbetween.

john smith wrote:

Jay, please stop saying he was fleeced. As others have posted, he was
paying the going market rate. It just took him longer than it did you.
Some people can do it in 40 hours, some 100 hours, others anywhere
inbetween.

Exactly. In terms of flight hours his training was almost twice as long
as the average, so unfortunately he had to spend nearly twice as much.

OTOH I am confident that he values his certificate all that much more.
He now also has twice the flying experience the average newly minted PPL has.

You were not intentionally fleeced -- but you *were* fleeced. You spent
at least 100% more than average, and 150% more than necessary. I
don't know a better definition of "fleeced" than that.

Jay, please stop saying he was fleeced. As others have posted, he was
paying the going market rate. It just took him longer than it did you.
Some people can do it in 40 hours, some 100 hours, others anywhere
inbetween.

Okay, point taken. Saying he was "fleeced" is inappropriate.

Let's just say he spent a lot more money to get his PPL than most
people do -- which is my entire point -- and leave it at that. I just
want to make sure that lurkers here don't leave this forum believing
that it is normal to spend five figures to obtain a PPL.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

John:
Don't be scared off by the heretics (?).
I fully appreciate your posting and discussion of the total costs.
I think it gives all of us who got our PPL's awhile ago a reasonable
idea why we don't see as many people getting into aviation nowadays.
It truely does take a personal and financial commitment to get a PPl now.

"john smith" wrote in message
...
John:
Don't be scared off by the heretics (?).

No worries, this is normal UseNet stuff. Very tame compared to a weekend
spent on a rugby road trip, you have to alligator skin to survive that, and
I played that game for 16 years. I think I can handle the normal UseNet
argument, err I mean discussion.

John
$$-ASEL :-)
where $$ = PP
(see I can have fun with it too)

BucFan wrote:
snip

And there's nothing wrong with that -- but then don't come back here
and scare the bejeesus out of lurkers by trumpeting that it now costs
5-figures to get your Private. Cuz it doesn't.

I know my timeframe to finish was longer than average, and I know why also.

John:

You're not the only one with a longer timeframe. I will NEVER admit to
anyone (other than any instructor I'm working with) how long it took.
I was dealing with a novice instructor who didn't know diddly about
teaching, a school that wasn't paying attention to the progress (or
lack thereof) of students, and so on. And at the time, I didn't
know any better. The CFI had no concept of diagnosing problems,
nor correcting them. I finally had enough and asked one of the other
instructors (who I knew socially and she stopped teaching primary
students years before) -- no, I begged and pleaded -- to take me
on as a primary student. In 3 lessons she had identified all the
problems, corrected them, and had me ready for the pre-solo
checkride. Had I been able to work with her the entire time, or
if I had recognized the problem was 30% me and 70% the original CFI,
my costs would have been MUCH lower.

I took 4 years and 4 CFIs. But in my case I had funerals, surgeries,
out-of-town trips for work, being p*ssed at the original school,
and so on. There was a period of 6 months that I didn't fly at
all.

When I finally did solo, it was a non-event. It was not joyous,
it was not a big deal. I considered it nothing more than a testament
to my checkbook and my stubborness.

I'm now back in training for IR. Only this time I know *so* much more
about dealing with CFIIs and such. And I've explained to the CFII
that I learned far too many bad habits as a primary student, and she's
going to have to retrain me.