CG hook on aero tows??

Our club lost a greatly respected, and still missed,
member in one of the accidents referred to in Bill
Dean's post. The visiting glider pilot 'winch launched'
on the aerotow run within the airfield with results
described in Chris Rolling's article.

I think that if that were to happen in the Scotland
now, and the glider involved had been towed by the
belly hook when a nose hook was available and mandated
for aerotow by the handbook, then manslaughter charges
would be inevitable - followed by civil action of the
part of the deceased's next of kin.

John Galloway

Shawn Curry wrote:

Bob Kuykendall wrote:

Some branches of this thread are starting to hot up. I call Godwin in
four!

Bob K.

Yeah sure you would say that. What are you some kind of Naz....
He He Just kinding :-)

Um, I mean kidding. The d and the n are sooo close, and my spell check
thinks "kinding" is a word.

This is Double Dutch, a language I don't speak. Please give an English
translation.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Bob Kuykendall" wrote in message
om...

Some branches of this thread are starting to hot up. I call Godwin in
four!

Bob K.

Mike,
There was a tug upset on takeoff in Tasmania a few years
ago. I don't remember the year, or other data. Sorry.
There must have been several in the more distant past to
cause GFA to mandate nose hooks for aero tow on new gliders
or those changing ownership. (Came in in the early 1980s I
think)
John G.

"Mike Borgelt" wrote in
message ...
| So does any one have an actual list of tug upset accidents
with
| towplane type, glider type and circumstances?
| Just off hand I can't remember any in Australia and yes
even when you
| use low tow the upset possibility exists after liftoff and
before
| transition to low tow.
| We've had plenty of towplane/glider midairs which makes
existence as
| a tow pilot 10 times as likely to kill you as cropdusting
per hour.
|
| Mike Borgelt

Schleicher used to fit what the customer wanted and was prepared to pay for.

I have seen an ASW 15 which had been delivered new to a club in France, and
later imported to the U.K., it had a forward hook for aerotow and no aft
hook for cable launching.

Many Schleicher single seaters were imported into the U.K. with only the aft
hook for cable launching, this hook was of course then used for aerotowing
as well.

When gliding in the U.K. had been alerted to the possible risks of
aerotowing using the aft cable launching hook, many privately owned gliders
were modified by fitting a forward aerotow hook, and I think this was
universal for club owned gliders.

Glasflugel with the Libelle got it right from the start by fitting both
hooks when it first appeared in 1965.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
...


On 6 Jan 2004 05:38:04 -0800, (Andy Durbin)
wrote:

What should I do with my ASW 19? I had planned to transition my low
time wife to it but perhaps the risks are just too great. Is there an
approved forward hook modification?


The only ones I've looked at in the UK (closely enough to count tow
hooks that is) have been fitted with both, so I'd always assumed that
was the norm.

Could there be a difference in factory spec between deliveries within
Europe and those to the US? That could make sense given the prevalence
of winching in Europe and its rarity on the US.

martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

"W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\)." wrote in message ...

If you really think that the glider pilot can control or stop this
process once
it starts, READ THE ARTICLE LINKED ABOVE;

I don't think I ever suggested that, and I have read the article. My
reference to experience was related to the probability of the upset
happening not to the probability of recovering from it. BGA seems to
accept that allowing pilots to aerotow on CG hooks is an acceptable
risk if they have recent experience. I have recent experience, and by
flying the ASW 28 on the cg hook I maintained recent experience so I
could return to the ASW 19. Next season I'll use the forward hook.
After having this discusssion, not to do so would be tempting fate
more that I would like.

I think you would be very wise to have your ASW 19 fitted with the approved
forward hook modification before your wife flies it on aerotow.

I agree.


By now the original poster will probably have decided never to fly the
B4 again.


Andy (GY)

"W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.)." wrote in message
...
Schleicher used to fit what the customer wanted and was prepared to pay
for.

I have seen an ASW 15 which had been delivered new to a club in France,
and
later imported to the U.K., it had a forward hook for aerotow and no aft
hook for cable launching.

Many Schleicher single seaters were imported into the U.K. with only the
aft
hook for cable launching, this hook was of course then used for aerotowing
as well.

When gliding in the U.K. had been alerted to the possible risks of
aerotowing using the aft cable launching hook, many privately owned
gliders
were modified by fitting a forward aerotow hook, and I think this was
universal for club owned gliders.

Glasflugel with the Libelle got it right from the start by fitting both
hooks when it first appeared in 1965.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
...


Correct me if I'm wrong, but fatal tug upsets have happened even with nose
hooks and there is no CG hook only glider that can't be safely launched by
air tow - if flown a good pilot. Before we go overboard with the CG/nose
hook debate, lets place most of the blame for these accidents where it
belongs - on the glider pilot who can't fly a particular glider or launch
method safely.

Air tow with a CG hook requires more care than with a nose hook, but it can
be done safely if the glider pilot is properly trained and pays attention to
business.

In support of a tug pilot who insisted on pre-flight discussions, let me say
that this is a necessary part of the glider pilots training. I have always
had a pre-flight talk with the tuggie to let him (or her) know that, should
anything start to go amiss, the tug should release instantly. I then brief
my student that the safe "box" within which the glider must be flown is
smaller with a CG hook and that it will take more care to stay in that box.
Should he stray outside the box he should expect the tug to instantly
release the rope.

As an aside, while I read of pilots who have attempted a "winch" launch by
air tow, I have seen pilots accustomed to air tow simply fail to climb on
winch launches. From the back seat, I can easily imagine a cartoonists
thought bubble over the pilots head with a big question mark in it - as we
sail down the airfield at 2 meters AGL waiting for something to happen.

We all need to thoroughly think through what is about to happen as the rope
is attached to the glider.

Bill Daniels

On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 21:58:53 +0000, Ian Strachan
wrote:

In article , Andy
Durbin writes

snip

LBA certification
prohibits the use of CG hook for aerotow

Does not that tell you something, then?

Unfortunately the above is wrong.
LBA certification prohibits the use of the CG hook in these cases:

- no use of CG hook for aerotows of student pilots
- no use of the CG hook if a nose hook is available
- retro-fitting of nose hook NOT required.

- according to the Gliding Operation Handbook (SBO) of the German Aero
Club (DAeC) a pilot is required of doing at least three aerotows on a
nose hook before he can do aerotows on a glider equipped only with CG
hook.

....

Bye
Andreas

On 6 Jan 2004 05:38:04 -0800, (Andy Durbin)
wrote:


What should I do with my ASW 19? I had planned to transition my low
time wife to it but perhaps the risks are just too great. Is there an
approved forward hook modification?

Well... let me say it this way:

- if your wife has enough practice, she'll easily be able to do a safe
aerotow on the CG hook.
- in the begining of the year (with little practice), do a little
aerotow training on a nose hook ship (or even dual training)
- In my club there was not one situation in the last twenty years
where a glider climbed over the tow plane and lost sight. Not one.
Despite the fact that our DG-300 (40 hrs total required to fly it),
ASW-15/ASW-24 (70 hrs) and ASW-20 only had CG hooks.

The critical part is not the placement of the CG hook and the
resulting nose-up tendency - the problem is pilot training (this is
the cause why now these three aerotows on the nose hook are required).

Bye
Andreas

I've got a low serial number LAK-17a which came from the factory with only a
cg hook. Later, when a nosehook was made available in response to the LBA
directive, the factory stated that the nosehook could not be retrofitted.
So far, the only launch issue has been a tendency to drop a wing at the
start of the launch which I seem to have solved by starting the roll with
the flaps reflexed. Until seeing this thread, I hadn't given the hook
position much thought.

None of the tow pilots where I've flown have commented on it; in fact two
of them have flown the glider. I also don't recall any discussion about the
cg hook during the check-out when I flew a club Pilatus a few years ago.

There doesn't seem to be any unusual tendency for the ship to pitch up on
tow and it seems to follow the towplane reasonably well. I haven't towed
through serious rotor yet, but it seems to behave well on tow in rough
conditions.

How concerned should I be about this? I have no desire to harm a tow pilot
or myself, but I don't want to undertake a major modification to the ship if
it isn't necessary. Any other Lak-17a pilots out there with a cg hook and
an opinion?

Ray Warshaw
1LK



"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
...

"W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.)." wrote in message
...
Schleicher used to fit what the customer wanted and was prepared to pay
for.

I have seen an ASW 15 which had been delivered new to a club in France,
and
later imported to the U.K., it had a forward hook for aerotow and no aft
hook for cable launching.

Many Schleicher single seaters were imported into the U.K. with only the
aft
hook for cable launching, this hook was of course then used for
aerotowing
as well.

When gliding in the U.K. had been alerted to the possible risks of
aerotowing using the aft cable launching hook, many privately owned
glide
were modified by fitting a forward aerotow hook, and I think this was
universal for club owned gliders.

Glasflugel with the Libelle got it right from the start by fitting both
hooks when it first appeared in 1965.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
...


Correct me if I'm wrong, but fatal tug upsets have happened even with nose
hooks and there is no CG hook only glider that can't be safely launched by
air tow - if flown a good pilot. Before we go overboard with the CG/nose
hook debate, lets place most of the blame for these accidents where it
belongs - on the glider pilot who can't fly a particular glider or launch
method safely.

Air tow with a CG hook requires more care than with a nose hook, but it
can
be done safely if the glider pilot is properly trained and pays attention
to
business.

In support of a tug pilot who insisted on pre-flight discussions, let me
say
that this is a necessary part of the glider pilots training. I have
always
had a pre-flight talk with the tuggie to let him (or her) know that,
should
anything start to go amiss, the tug should release instantly. I then
brief
my student that the safe "box" within which the glider must be flown is
smaller with a CG hook and that it will take more care to stay in that
box.
Should he stray outside the box he should expect the tug to instantly
release the rope.

As an aside, while I read of pilots who have attempted a "winch" launch by
air tow, I have seen pilots accustomed to air tow simply fail to climb on
winch launches. From the back seat, I can easily imagine a cartoonists
thought bubble over the pilots head with a big question mark in it - as
we
sail down the airfield at 2 meters AGL waiting for something to happen.

We all need to thoroughly think through what is about to happen as the
rope
is attached to the glider.

Bill Daniels