Fly Boy ?????

ArtKramr wrote:


Let me tell you a story about a long forgotten incident in WW II. It is one of
those things that have never been discussed on this NG. There was a famous
footblall player, a famous All American who became a B-17 pilot. His plane was
severely damaged by flack and he bailed out and survived. But not a single one
of hsd crew did. There were accusations that he lost his nerve and bailed
before his crew could get out. And they all died because of his cowardice.
Noithing was ever proven and he was not prosecuted. But there was always that
lingering doubt. And this haunted him all his life. Whenever I hear of a pilot
that made it out, but the crew were all lost, it brings back the memory of
that WW II incident.
And there many of us who will never forget it.

Surely there were many aircraft with two or more crew where only one got
out during all of WWII, PTO, CBI, ETO, MTO!

You surely aren't going to label them all "cowards" by definition are
you?

Most people that went into concentration camps never made it out. There
was certainly stealing and back stabbing and sucking up to the SS by at
least some camp members. Does that imply anyone who survived did so via
underhanded means?

I think you're being *way* overly harsh in this judgment, and I also
think your distaste for the Bush clan is driving your judgment.


SMH

ArtKramr wrote:


Let me tell you a story about a long forgotten incident in WW II. It is
one of
those things that have never been discussed on this NG. There was a
famous
footblall player, a famous All American who became a B-17 pilot. His
plane was
severely damaged by flack and he bailed out and survived. But not a
single one
of hsd crew did. There were accusations that he lost his nerve and
bailed
before his crew could get out. And they all died because of his
cowardice.
Noithing was ever proven and he was not prosecuted. But there was
always that
lingering doubt. And this haunted him all his life. Whenever I hear of a
pilot
that made it out, but the crew were all lost, it brings back the memory
of
that WW II incident.
And there many of us who will never forget it.

As usual Dum-dum got it wrong again.

Tom Harmon of Michigan was the supposed culprit.

It was a B-25 not a B-17 as the "legend in his own mind" writes!

ArtKramr wrote:

Let me tell you a story about a long forgotten incident in WW II. It is one of
those things that have never been discussed on this NG. There was a famous
footblall player, a famous All American who became a B-17 pilot. His plane was
severely damaged by flack and he bailed out and survived. But not a single one
of hsd crew did. There were accusations that he lost his nerve and bailed
before his crew could get out. And they all died because of his cowardice.
Noithing was ever proven and he was not prosecuted. But there was always that
lingering doubt. And this haunted him all his life. Whenever I hear of a pilot
that made it out, but the crew were all lost, it brings back the memory of
that WW II incident.
And there many of us who will never forget it.

Arthur Kramer


You really should have been a politician.

You can write a neat bit of character assasination and still be able to
deny having done it because you never mentioned his name.

Just ----- amazing!

Dave

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: "Erik Pfeister"
Date: 10/21/03 2:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


ArtKramr wrote:


Let me tell you a story about a long forgotten incident in WW II. It is
one of
those things that have never been discussed on this NG. There was a
famous
footblall player, a famous All American who became a B-17 pilot. His
plane was
severely damaged by flack and he bailed out and survived. But not a
single one
of hsd crew did. There were accusations that he lost his nerve and
bailed
before his crew could get out. And they all died because of his
cowardice.
Noithing was ever proven and he was not prosecuted. But there was
always that
lingering doubt. And this haunted him all his life. Whenever I hear of a
pilot
that made it out, but the crew were all lost, it brings back the memory
of
that WW II incident.
And there many of us who will never forget it.

As usual Dum-dum got it wrong again.

Tom Harmon of Michigan was the supposed culprit.

It was a B-25 not a B-17 as the "legend in his own mind" writes!




Did you fly the B-17 or the B-25?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: Stephen Harding
Date: 10/21/03 1:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

ArtKramr wrote:


Let me tell you a story about a long forgotten incident in WW II. It is one
of
those things that have never been discussed on this NG. There was a famous
footblall player, a famous All American who became a B-17 pilot. His plane
was
severely damaged by flack and he bailed out and survived. But not a single
one
of hsd crew did. There were accusations that he lost his nerve and bailed
before his crew could get out. And they all died because of his cowardice.
Noithing was ever proven and he was not prosecuted. But there was always
that
lingering doubt. And this haunted him all his life. Whenever I hear of a
pilot
that made it out, but the crew were all lost, it brings back the memory of
that WW II incident.
And there many of us who will never forget it.

Surely there were many aircraft with two or more crew where only one got
out during all of WWII, PTO, CBI, ETO, MTO!

You surely aren't going to label them all "cowards" by definition are
you?

Most people that went into concentration camps never made it out. There
was certainly stealing and back stabbing and sucking up to the SS by at
least some camp members. Does that imply anyone who survived did so via
underhanded means?

I think you're being *way* overly harsh in this judgment, and I also
think your distaste for the Bush clan is driving your judgment.


SMH


Everything you say is true and I can't argue with any of it. But every time I
hear of where only a pilot survived and anenire crew was lost, I can't help but
think back.But maybe when one is aircrew it means a lot more than if one never
set foot in a plane or flew a mission. You can understand that can't you?

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr wrote:

Everything you say is true and I can't argue with any of it. But every time I
hear of where only a pilot survived and anenire crew was lost, I can't help but
think back.But maybe when one is aircrew it means a lot more than if one never
set foot in a plane or flew a mission. You can understand that can't you?

I suppose such a thought could linger in one's mind.

I know guilt at being a lone survivor of terrible events can sometimes drive
a person to suicide. "Why did I survive when everyone around me died?"

I remember reading "recent" (1980's) analysis of evidence from the Little
Big Horn battle site in Montana after a prairie fire cleared the area, that
indicated one soldier *almost* escaped being killed along with Custer and
his command.

Fragments of his body and that of his horse, were found quite a distance
away from the main battle site.

Had he survived, can you imagine the insinuations that fellow would have had
to endure for the remainder of his life, justly or not?


SMH

Why wan't this book written ten years ago?. Or 5 years ago? Why now just before
an election?

Art, you're being ridiculous. Why wasn't every book written ten years
ago?

Perhaps the author wasn't out of school then?

Besides, "Flyboys" evidently isn't about Bush 43 or even about Bush
41. It's primarily about seven American fliers captured, murdered, and
eaten off Chichi Jima.



all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

he mentions the smell of "jet fuel".

That's a good one. I suppose he means diesel fuel for the ship.

I'm reading "The Village" by Bing West, about a USMC squad in a
village in Vietnam. Several times Mr. West refers to grenades as "hand
bombs", and it's not because he doesn't know better. He was a platoon
leader in Vietnam. I assume he decided to make things easier for the
modern reader.

West is the guy who wrote the splendid account of the marines in Iraq,
"The March Up". http://tinyurl.com/rv6q


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Now I have no axe to grind one way or the other but this seems
a little harsh.

Yes, after all these years, I flushed Art down the toilet as a result
of this thread. He took 64 messages with him! And I clean out my
message software every day.

r.a.m. will certainly be easier to read from now on.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Cub Driver" wrote in message

Now I have no axe to grind one way or the other but this seems
a little harsh.

Yes, after all these years, I flushed Art down the toilet as a result
of this thread.

Took you long enough!