Radio altimeter fault triggered Turkish Airlines crash

On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 14:19:55 -0800, Steve Hix wrote:

In article ,
"Darkwing" theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com wrote:

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...
On Mar 4, 5:37 am, "Musicrab" wrote:
In the news
everywherehttp://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/unusual-attitude/2009/03/turkish
-ai...

What's the Boeing 737-800 flight manual say about what to do when left and
right hand altimeters don't match?

I'm right handed so I've not tried using a left hand altimeter.

I write left handed but I throw a baseball, bowl, shoot a basketball etc.
like a righty so which altimeter would I look at?

If you find out, let me know too.

The one you're not using to beat your meat will work.
--
http://tr.im/1f9p

"Darkwing" theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com wrote in message
...

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...
On Mar 4, 5:37 am, "Musicrab" wrote:
In the news
everywherehttp://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/unusual-attitude/2009/03/turkish-ai...

What's the Boeing 737-800 flight manual say about what to do when left
and
right hand altimeters don't match?

I'm right handed so I've not tried using a left hand altimeter.

I write left handed but I throw a baseball, bowl, shoot a basketball etc.
like a righty so which altimeter would I look at?

Duh, huh,,, either!

"DannyDot" wrote in message
...
a wrote:
On Mar 4, 2:21 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Musicrab writes:

snip

I don't think (and could be wrong) that a coupled/automated approach
does in fact need a conventional altimeter.

In my F-4 it did not. But that was back in the mid 80s with an analog
autopilot.

Also, can some explain what retard is?

Danny Deger

Mx=retard=Mx=retard=

"-b-" wrote in message
...
In article
,
says...


On Mar 4, 11:21 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Musicrab writes:
What's the Boeing 737-800 flight manual say about what to do when left
and
right hand altimeters don't match?

It surely points out that working altimeters are required for an
automated
approach. The airline flew with broken altimeters, and after tempting
fate
several times, it finally caught up with them.

You are talking about standard altitude altimeters or RAs? From
reading the it appears that the concern is about the RA's not the
altimeters. No plane is going to flare as a result of a reading from a
pressure altimeter.

-Robret

Technicalities. MXS is talking about FATE - that's his explanation for the
crash. If the NTSB disagrees, it simply means they are wrong, and their
staff
are dangerous pilots.


with poor attitudes and high testosterone levels.

In article ,
says...


Musicrab writes:

What's the Boeing 737-800 flight manual say about what to do when left and
right hand altimeters don't match?

It surely points out that working altimeters are required for an automated
approach. The airline flew with broken altimeters, and after tempting fate
several times, it finally caught up with them.

A bold and brazen statement, betraying unfortunately vast ignorance.
What, precisely, does the 737-800 manual say about automated apporaches and
about fate?

Turkish Airlines has the worst safety record of all airlines in Europe and the
U.S. combined, in terms of flights with fatalities over total flights. And it
trails by quite a margin.

In statistical terms, can we clarify the bizarre statement "worst
record...Europe and US combined...?" How, in mathematical terms, do you propose
to "combine" them. What is the arithmetic significance of this statement, in
the extremely charitable hypothesis that such exists?

In article ,
says...


Musicrab writes:

What's the Boeing 737-800 flight manual say about what to do when left and
right hand altimeters don't match?

It surely points out that working altimeters are required for an automated
approach. The airline flew with broken altimeters, and after tempting fate
several times, it finally caught up with them.

Do airlines have altimiters? Knowledgeble pilots recognize that such
instruments are parts of airplanes, but corporations do not require them, as
they remain at stable altitudes.

It would be interesting to review the NTSB's view on the role of "fate" in this
incident. One might imagine they would take a relativly dim view of this
contributor's accident analysis.

In article ,
says...


On Mar 4, 11:21*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Musicrab writes:
What's the Boeing 737-800 flight manual say about what to do when left and
right hand altimeters don't match?

It surely points out that working altimeters are required for an automated
approach. *The airline flew with broken altimeters, and after tempting fate
several times, it finally caught up with them.

You are talking about standard altitude altimeters or RAs? From
reading the it appears that the concern is about the RA's not the
altimeters. No plane is going to flare as a result of a reading from a
pressure altimeter.

-Robret

Technicalities. MXS is talking about FATE - that's his explanation for the
crash. If the NTSB disagrees, it simply means they are wrong, and their staff
are dangerous pilots.

On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 18:27:00 -0600, DannyDot
wrote:

a wrote:
On Mar 4, 2:21 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Musicrab writes:

snip

I don't think (and could be wrong) that a coupled/automated approach
does in fact need a conventional altimeter.

In my F-4 it did not. But that was back in the mid 80s with an analog
autopilot.

Also, can some explain what retard is?

They must have been doing an autoland if the radio altimeter was
involved. It feeds the autopilots AGL for calculating when to reduce
thrust and begin the flare. Otherwise it would have just been
following the NAV inputs for GS and LOC down to whenever the airline
SOP dictated disconnection of AP/AT for a hand-flown landing.

IIUC, "retard" is a callout in an Airbus for idle thrust. Never flown
one so no idea.

Robert M. Gary writes:

You are talking about standard altitude altimeters or RAs?

RAs. One of them had malfunctioned on several previous flights, according to
the flight data recorders. The airline had not bothered to fix it, even
though it is essential for autoland (perhaps the airline expected its pilots
to be alert and hard-working enough to fly landings by hand, although that's
not really an excuse).

No plane is going to flare as a result of a reading from a
pressure altimeter.

But it probably will if the RA says that it's 7 feet below the runway.

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Robert M. Gary writes:

You are talking about standard altitude altimeters or RAs?

RAs. One of them had malfunctioned on several previous flights, according
to
the flight data recorders. The airline had not bothered to fix it, even
though it is essential for autoland (perhaps the airline expected its
pilots
to be alert and hard-working enough to fly landings by hand, although
that's
not really an excuse).

No plane is going to flare as a result of a reading from a
pressure altimeter.

But it probably will if the RA says that it's 7 feet below the runway.

What a dumb ass.