Cheap Covering

I need to recover my Flybaby. I have researched latex in depth but
was interested in other methods from the past.

Please don't bother with the debate about non standard experimental
methods. I understand that one of the fine approved methods are
excellent. I want to experiment and brainstorm options and I'm cheap
and broke due to the Wall Street thieves.

Here are some basic ideas.

No cyanide fumes, epoxies, chemicals requiring fresh air supply, and
the general cancer causing substances that pass as homebuilder
friendly. Benign cleanup of water or varsol paint thinners to avoid
nasty solvents. Life's short enough without all that crap. No Haz-
Mat shipping.

Available locally at paint, industrial, and home stores preferred.

Brush and roller friendly.

Standard dacron non-cert fabric from a homebuilder supplier.

Might have access to some powdered aluminum for UV protection, more
than willing to paint with a silver topcoat like Tremclad (believe it
gets its shine from aluminum already).

Willing to consider one seal coat of water borne STC approved product
if not horribly expensive.

Simple 2 colour scheme, maybe aluminum silver with flat black accents
in a British between war military look. Or classic fuselage one
colour wings another with matching metal fittings.

Once read a writeup by Veeduber about alternatives like varnish but
can't find it now.

I'm wondering about latex primer base with oil based enamel silver top
coat? I would prefer to avoid a latex top coat.

Any ideas or past experience welcome, both successful and not.

On Aug 5, 5:45*pm, canuck_bob wrote:
I need to recover my Flybaby. *I have researched latex in depth but
was interested in other methods from the past.

Please don't bother with the debate about non standard experimental
methods. *I understand that one of the fine approved methods are
excellent. *I want to experiment and brainstorm options and I'm cheap
and broke due to the Wall Street thieves.

Here are some basic ideas.

No cyanide fumes, epoxies, chemicals requiring fresh air supply, and
the general cancer causing substances that pass as homebuilder
friendly. *Benign cleanup of water or varsol paint thinners to avoid
nasty solvents. *Life's short enough without all that crap. *No Haz-
Mat shipping.

Available locally at paint, industrial, and home stores preferred.

Brush and roller friendly.

Standard dacron non-cert fabric from a homebuilder supplier.

Might have access to some powdered aluminum for UV protection, more
than willing to paint with a silver topcoat like Tremclad (believe it
gets its shine from aluminum already).

Willing to consider one seal coat of water borne STC approved product
if not horribly expensive.

Simple 2 colour scheme, maybe aluminum silver with flat black accents
in a British between war military look. *Or classic fuselage one
colour wings another with matching metal fittings.

* Once read a writeup by Veeduber about alternatives like varnish but
can't find it now.

I'm wondering about latex primer base with oil based enamel silver top
coat? I would prefer to avoid a latex top coat.

Any ideas or past experience welcome, both successful and not.

I had an Emeraude which had been recovered and finished with Sears
black latex primer; then finished with Dupont Dulux automotive enamel.
I don't know how much weight the finish contributed to the net, but
that was one of the heaviest Emeraudes around. The construction of the
plane was the same as Emeraudes which were much lighter and finished
with standard stuff like Poly-Fiber or Ceconite. With an O-200 for
power, it was *990 lbs* dry. After only ~five years since recovering,
the enamel was severely cracking.

IMHO it is false economy to use this method.. Yes, it works. No, it
will not last and *YES* it is heavy.

Rich S.

"Rich S." wrote in message
...
On Aug 5, 5:45 pm, canuck_bob wrote:
I need to recover my Flybaby. I have researched latex in depth but
was interested in other methods from the past.

Please don't bother with the debate about non standard experimental
methods. I understand that one of the fine approved methods are
excellent. I want to experiment and brainstorm options and I'm cheap
and broke due to the Wall Street thieves.

Here are some basic ideas.

No cyanide fumes, epoxies, chemicals requiring fresh air supply, and
the general cancer causing substances that pass as homebuilder
friendly. Benign cleanup of water or varsol paint thinners to avoid
nasty solvents. Life's short enough without all that crap. No Haz-
Mat shipping.

Available locally at paint, industrial, and home stores preferred.

Brush and roller friendly.

Standard dacron non-cert fabric from a homebuilder supplier.

Might have access to some powdered aluminum for UV protection, more
than willing to paint with a silver topcoat like Tremclad (believe it
gets its shine from aluminum already).

Willing to consider one seal coat of water borne STC approved product
if not horribly expensive.

Simple 2 colour scheme, maybe aluminum silver with flat black accents
in a British between war military look. Or classic fuselage one
colour wings another with matching metal fittings.

Once read a writeup by Veeduber about alternatives like varnish but
can't find it now.

I'm wondering about latex primer base with oil based enamel silver top
coat? I would prefer to avoid a latex top coat.

Any ideas or past experience welcome, both successful and not.

I had an Emeraude which had been recovered and finished with Sears
black latex primer; then finished with Dupont Dulux automotive enamel.
I don't know how much weight the finish contributed to the net, but
that was one of the heaviest Emeraudes around. The construction of the
plane was the same as Emeraudes which were much lighter and finished
with standard stuff like Poly-Fiber or Ceconite. With an O-200 for
power, it was *990 lbs* dry. After only ~five years since recovering,
the enamel was severely cracking.

IMHO it is false economy to use this method.. Yes, it works. No, it
will not last and *YES* it is heavy.

Rich S.

While I have no doubt that the paint combination was a poor choice and had a
poor lifespan, I really have trouble believing that the paint was much of
the added weight.

The best guess that I could make, and I admit to a lack of the necessary
experience and expertise, is that the choice of paint could have made the
aircraft 20 pounds heavier--or 30 pounds at the extreme.

The Continental O-200, instead of C-90 could have added a few
pounds--especially if the original did not have electric start. But a
couple of radios don't weigh very much and that still leaves more than 100
pounds not accounted for.

So, I suspect that there may be more to the story...

Peter

On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 17:27:38 -0700 (PDT), "Rich S."
wrote:



Any ideas or past experience welcome, both successful and not.

I had an Emeraude which had been recovered and finished with Sears
black latex primer; then finished with Dupont Dulux automotive enamel.
I don't know how much weight the finish contributed to the net, but
that was one of the heaviest Emeraudes around. The construction of the
plane was the same as Emeraudes which were much lighter and finished
with standard stuff like Poly-Fiber or Ceconite. With an O-200 for
power, it was *990 lbs* dry. After only ~five years since recovering,
the enamel was severely cracking.

IMHO it is false economy to use this method.. Yes, it works. No, it
will not last and *YES* it is heavy.

Rich S.

I'm convinced that finishes like razorback and ceconite over polyester
would not be certified with the hindsight to see their faults.

my aircraft was covered in Stits, or Polyfiber as it is now know, back
in 1983~4. despite thinking that it was good for maybe another 4 years
for all of the past 10 or 12 years the bloody stuff just will not die.
it is painted in polytone which will remain repairable for the life of
the finish. just wipe back with a rag soaked in MEK, do the repair and
rebuild the finish.
no cracking of the polytone except where the builder failed to use the
pinked tapes over structure that should have been reinforced.

for what it cost it has to be the cheapest fabric covering going. it
just lasts and lasts and lasts.

Stealth Pilot

Look into Stewart Systems.
Water clean-up.
Water based.
Apply with roller or brush thru many coatings
No fumes.
EZ repairs

I'm looking at it. Anything you find out is appreciated - Mike

I appreciate the advice regarding Stits. My plane was originally
covered in Stits, nice choice.

The simple fact is that my plane has sat in my little hangar for years
and I will not fly it unless I can do it cheap. My budget for a
complete refurbish would not cover the expense of a certified system.
Costs skyrocket here in Canada with exchange, duty, broker fees,
hazmat shipping. Faced with not flying or accepting a cheap
alternative the decision is easier to make.

The Hipec System is produced locally so I am researching it. Thanks
for the line on the Stewart System they have a Canadian supplier and
ship without hazmat it appears.

To answer Mike.

There are lots of successful latex paint jobs, and lots of duds as
well. A Pietenpol builder actually did controlled tests of the UV
blocking effects of different latex paints and found colour was not an
issue. Almost everyone uses an accepted fabric from suppliers and one
of the accepted glue systems, often from Polyfibre. Top quality white
primers are fine for the base coat and the mechanical bond is reported
to be fine. Failures come from applying the coats too thick leading
to cracking later and sloppy colour coat application.

I found Veeduber's thread on flying on the cheap and am looking into
earlier practices of using varnish. I am going to locate some fabric
samples and experiment. I'm thinking a guy should be able to tint a
good exterior varnish with silver tint (aluminum paste ?) for UV
protection.

The most common complaint is the one Rich voices. Auto poly paints,
even with plasticizers, often fail by cracking and delaminatining and
peeling.

I would appreciate any experiences with alternative methods please.

On Aug 7, 11:17*am, canuck_bob wrote:

I found Veeduber's thread on flying on the cheap and am looking into
earlier practices of using varnish. *I am going to locate some fabric
samples and experiment. *I'm thinking a guy should be able to tint a
good exterior varnish with silver tint (aluminum paste ?) for UV
protection.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Bob,

I think it would be wise to take any of my earlier posts with a grain
of salt and to proceed as you've outlined above.

All finishes shrink to some degree. It will take some experimentation
to confirm the practicality of any particular product.

Personally, I've been experimenting with water-based varnish. I only
have about 18 months of data but its characteristics are a virtual
match to your stated requirements (availability, low-cost, etc.) The
points about which I can not comment have to do with its durability
after long-term exposure to sunlight. Right now I have a test panel
on the roof of my garage and another inside of it. I would like to
gather five years of data before determining its usefulness but
there's a high probability I may not live that long.

I've not done any experiments with colored water-based varnish but I'm
confident that artist's colors as used for watercoloring and other
water-based use... possibly some screen-printing inks?.... should
prove acceptable.

-R.S.Hover

Stealth Pilot wrote:

I'm convinced that finishes like razorback and ceconite over polyester
would not be certified with the hindsight to see their faults.

my aircraft was covered in Stits, or Polyfiber as it is now know, back
in 1983~4. despite thinking that it was good for maybe another 4 years
for all of the past 10 or 12 years the bloody stuff just will not die.
it is painted in polytone which will remain repairable for the life of
the finish. just wipe back with a rag soaked in MEK, do the repair and
rebuild the finish. /snip/
Stealth Pilot

Is polyfiber a proprietary name for polyester 1.8 ounce heat shrinkable
cloth - also found in drapers as polyester lining material?


Brian W

On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 10:05:28 -0500, brian whatcott
wrote:

Stealth Pilot wrote:

I'm convinced that finishes like razorback and ceconite over polyester
would not be certified with the hindsight to see their faults.

my aircraft was covered in Stits, or Polyfiber as it is now know, back
in 1983~4. despite thinking that it was good for maybe another 4 years
for all of the past 10 or 12 years the bloody stuff just will not die.
it is painted in polytone which will remain repairable for the life of
the finish. just wipe back with a rag soaked in MEK, do the repair and
rebuild the finish. /snip/
Stealth Pilot

Is polyfiber a proprietary name for polyester 1.8 ounce heat shrinkable
cloth - also found in drapers as polyester lining material?


Brian W

no. and the difference is a very important one.
when polyester fabric is woven the yarn is first stretched slightly at
an elevated temperature. after weaving the cloth is passed through
another heat process to cause the yarn to shrink and better bed in
with the weave. it makes a better fabric for your dresses.

polyfiber grabs the woven cloth before the second heat process.
it is called the greiged state.
after you glue the fabric to the aircraft structure you go over it
with an iron. the ironing causes the fabric to shrink as per the post
weave process for dress fabric. it is that shrink that taughtens up
the fabric, something done by the dope when a natural fiber is used.

so if you buy store dress material you will not in theory have any
method of taughtening it other than to use dope.
if you can buy the drapers polyester lining material in the greiged
state then theoretically it would be usable.

Stealth Pilot

On Fri, 7 Aug 2009 11:17:37 -0700 (PDT), canuck_bob
wrote:

I appreciate the advice regarding Stits. My plane was originally
covered in Stits, nice choice.

The simple fact is that my plane has sat in my little hangar for years
and I will not fly it unless I can do it cheap. My budget for a
complete refurbish would not cover the expense of a certified system.
Costs skyrocket here in Canada with exchange, duty, broker fees,
hazmat shipping. Faced with not flying or accepting a cheap
alternative the decision is easier to make.

The Hipec System is produced locally so I am researching it. Thanks
for the line on the Stewart System they have a Canadian supplier and
ship without hazmat it appears.

To answer Mike.

There are lots of successful latex paint jobs, and lots of duds as
well. A Pietenpol builder actually did controlled tests of the UV
blocking effects of different latex paints and found colour was not an
issue. Almost everyone uses an accepted fabric from suppliers and one
of the accepted glue systems, often from Polyfibre. Top quality white
primers are fine for the base coat and the mechanical bond is reported
to be fine. Failures come from applying the coats too thick leading
to cracking later and sloppy colour coat application.

I found Veeduber's thread on flying on the cheap and am looking into
earlier practices of using varnish. I am going to locate some fabric
samples and experiment. I'm thinking a guy should be able to tint a
good exterior varnish with silver tint (aluminum paste ?) for UV
protection.

The most common complaint is the one Rich voices. Auto poly paints,
even with plasticizers, often fail by cracking and delaminatining and
peeling.

I would appreciate any experiences with alternative methods please.

tell me why you are contemplating replacing the stits.
what is wrong with it?

I ask because the damn stuff doesnt deteriorate in a hangar. if it is
just the paint finish that is stuffed then that can be repaired.
you can spray rejuvinator over it to replasticise the finish.
you can wipe the finish off with mek if it is polytone.

are you sure you need to replace the stits at all?
Stealth Pilot