Florida Mil Comms Loggings - Mon, 17 May 2004

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Guy Alcala
confessed the following:

Oh, I've always wanted to roll over and rat someone out to the feds! With
my luck I'll get classified as an enemy combatant -- being a Northern
California native probably qualifies me in the eyes of this administration
;-)

Of course we know that Guy Alcala is simply a clever play on words,
Al-Guycala (the extra c-a is merely a form of phonetic MIJI) hence
Al-Guyla (say it fast, kinda slurred) is pretty darn close to
al-Quada, ergo you are a spy.

If Saddam Hussein had ties to al-Qaeda, by golly you clearly do too.
Kindly turn over your WMD.

And to think I believed that reading and analysing data from open
sources was a completely legal activity in this country.

Subversive! Thinking...there'll be none of that.

OTOH, the USAF
supposedly made the attempt to classify Maxwell's equations some years
back (stealth, don't you know), which would have been an interesting
exercise in ex-post facto censorship.

You've given me an idea, maybe I can sell Avagadro's number (he was a
Mole afterall) and Planck's constant on e-Bay.

Juvat

In article , fudog50
wrote:

You're right, I'll give it a rest,,,there is nothing
classified,,,
like I said sensitive maybe,,just a normal reaction to this stuff due
to years on the pointy end during the cold war,,,try to post that
stuff in the 80's,,,
While it may be that you feel you are free to post any kind of
sensitive **** on here because of an ego thing, and it is totally
unclassified,,,just remember, our friends used to be our enemies, and
just as fast as it changed,,, it could change again.
Like I said,,,just another piece of the puzzle. Go ahead and
keep showing the world how CONOPS are performed in a military ATC
environment and the pattern of the COMMS, very smart.
"Military" is the key word here, and if you still feel it's ok
to post to the world our military Comms during a time of war, then
keep going, then we will see who's side you are on.
You seem to forget that "usenet" is the entire world, not just
some people here in the states you are trying to impress.


You may or may not be aware of what an intelligence analyst will
actually do with such open source data. Having been in that role, were I
assigned to characterize US military operating procedures, and found
these posts, I'd start by asking some of the following questions:

1. Is Guy Alcala actually what he claims to be, or is this a US
disinformation operation posting slightly-altered-from-reality
data intended to confuse OSINT (Open Source Intelligence)?

2. If he is who he purports to be, does his monitoring cover a
statistically significant part of the operational period?
By relying on his data, might I come up with an accurate
picture of US communications procedures for the times when
he is at home and not sleeping? Or, might I wind up making
assumptions for late night operations -- which the US _loves_ --
based on his obervation during more sensible hours?

3. How valuable is accurate data? If I just want to familiarize
my people with what US communications sound like, it may be
adequate. If, however, there's a critical need -- we plan
to disrupt operational communications in a future operation --
is OSINT the correct way to go?

This is the "collection guidance" problem -- what is the best
means to gather the data for a requirement laid upon me?
If OSINT from one source (Guy) isn't enough, are there enough
bobbyists posting from other locations that I can build an
adequate mosaic from OSINT? Should I dedicate COMINT resources?

How much human skill is needed to do the intercepts? Could
I get away with a one-time infiltration of a programmable
radio receiver, which creates audio files and transmits them
steganographically to my processing center? Do I need to
infiltrate an innocent-appearing person to, say, be a retiree
in Florida [1] that has a hobby of radio listening, and then
again securely sends me his findings?

[1] Obviously a very poor cover identity for Florida...NOT. Much easier
to have someone in this role, perhaps posing as a retired Canadian
rug store salesman that is now a snowbird, rather than a tough-
looking robed and daggered fedayeen

The bottom line is that even if I were a hostile intelligence analyst, I
might rationally decide not to use his data, or use it for background
only. There are other ways to get the information, perhaps with greater
risk and expense, but also more accuracy or statistical significance.

One subtle point is that TOO MUCH open source information may be as
great a handicap, to foreign analysts, than too little. If they have to
spend a great deal of time evaluating the reliability and coverage of
the OSINT, it just may be simpler to do COMINT.

It's really sad that they are still running single engine Cessna's in
the war on drugs given we lost two such planes in Columbia and US
citizens are still being held hostage from one of the crashes. I
wasn't aware the US had any of those Caravans registered in their own
name, rather than hide behind a shell corporation like "One Leasing".

As always, a nice job in mil air coms by Mr. Stern.


(AllanStern) wrote in message ...
Monday, 17 May 2004
Interesting comms today: some concerning one of the nation's newest acft,
the F/A-22 now at Tyndall AFB, and some about the good old days when "The Real
Stuff" was going on at Cape Canaveral, and I was there.

AIR TRANSPORT 400: DC-8, Little Rock (USAF Contractor)
8:58am: Lands Patrick. Later departs to Antigua, then to Ascension - both USAF
Eastern Test Range downrange sites.
[133.75]

N4667B: CE-208B Cessna Caravan, US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air Wing,
Patrick AFB.
9:17am: Departs Patrick.
2:50pm: Lands Patrick.
[133.75]

HAWK 85; F/A-18D, Beaufort MCAS VMFA(AW)-533
9:44am: Transitions area to Mayport NAF
[269.3, 273.55]

MAKOs 11, 12: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
10:01am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
[292.2, 138.125]

SHARK 21: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
10:25am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
10:45am: RTBs to HST.
[292.2, 307.1, 139.8]

AX 186: C-130T, Andrews AFB VR-53 "Capitol Express"
10:31am: Area transition. Might be C-40 acft replacing VR-53's C-130Ts, as
noted by Sandy in Colo recently.
[133.475, 132.15]

BRONCO 01: OV-10D, US State Dept US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air
Wing, Patrick AFB.
10:45am: Departs Patrick (flight of 2).
4:12pm: Lands Patrick.
[133.75]

AKULA 31: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
10:52am: Single ship, arrives at Avon Park Bombing Range.
[292.2, 307.1]

JOLLYs 11, 12: HH-60G Pave Hawk Helos, Patrick AFB 920RQW
11:51am: Departs Patrick; approaches at KMLB, Patrick.
[269.375]

PJ 610: P-3C, Whidbey Island NAS VP-69 "Totems" Sqdn
12:10pm: Lands Patrick.
[269.375]

HQ 475: SH-60B, Mayport NAF HSL-46 "Grandmasters" Sqdn
12:30pm: Area transition.
[132.65]

VDA 4813: AN-124, Volga Dnepr (Contractor)
2:30pm: Departs NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Facility. This huge Ukrainian
transport had RONd previous night after bringing large aerospace cargo. Note
RON at SLF instead of CCAFS whose runway is closed for construction.
[128.55, 132.65, 124.8, 133.3]

VAMPIRE 72: F/A-22, Tyndall AFB 325FW 43FS
2:45pm: Touch and go at Patrick on apparent fam flight through area; remains at
low altitude (and therefor VHF freqs). This is my first snag of comms from an
F/A-22. Was a bit too low and fast for me to get into my camera window.
Tyndall is USAF's only F/A-22 schoolhouse; so I expect to see more of them.
Made a wonderful shallow swooping pass over my house off of Patrick's Rnwy 20
before heading south along the coast. I LIKE this plane. Looks like it loves to
roll.
[133.75, 1312.65, 132.25]

SHARKs 21, 22, 23: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
3:00pm: Strafing at Avon Park Bombing Range.
[292.2, 285.725, 139.8]

MAKO 11 Flight: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
3:00pm: Hitting tgts at Avon Park.
3:04pm: MAKO 11 has to RTB HST with problem.
3:40pm: Balance of flight RTBs.
[292.2, 285.725, 307.1, 269.3, 239.25, 370.9, 322.5]

SHARK 89: C-130.
3:39pm: Area transition, to waypoint Nassau.
[119.825]

LIMA LIMA 38: P-3C Jacksonville NAS VP-30 "Pro's Nest" Sqdn.
3:45pm: Area transition.
[133.475]

ZANTOP 757: Zantop Intl (Charter), Ypsilanti MI
5:27pm: Area transition.
Those of us who were here in the 1960s Hey-days of the space program, remember
the ever-present Zantop acft at Patrick AFB, supporting operations. ZANTOP 757
engaged in some great reminiscences about those days; this pilot flew flights
into Patrick in the old days, and the 133.475 ATC was controlling flights back
then. Nice to hear them chat and to feel the nostalgia of my days during the
Gemini missions and the Saturn-Apollo moon-landing flights. I used to monitor
the action right from the beach in those days.

BOLT 13: KC-135R, MacDill 6AMW.
10:03pm: En route to Homestead.
[133.475, 119.825, 132.25]

AL STERN Satellite Beach FL (28-11N 80-36W) monitoring
Patrick AFB (KCOF) NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Fac (KX68)
Avon Park Bombing Range (KAGR) Cape Canaveral AFS (KXMR)
JSTARS E-8 Acft Integration Facility, Melbourne IAP (KMLB)
Worldwide Military HF Communications
Life Member: Missile, Space and Range Pioneers.
http://hometown.aol.com/allanstern/m...age/index.html (My Freqs)
http://hometown.aol.com/scanaddict/index.html (My Equipment)

Robey Price wrote:

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Guy Alcala
confessed the following:

Oh, I've always wanted to roll over and rat someone out to the feds! With
my luck I'll get classified as an enemy combatant -- being a Northern
California native probably qualifies me in the eyes of this administration
;-)

Of course we know that Guy Alcala is simply a clever play on words,
Al-Guycala (the extra c-a is merely a form of phonetic MIJI) hence
Al-Guyla (say it fast, kinda slurred) is pretty darn close to
al-Quada, ergo you are a spy.

If Saddam Hussein had ties to al-Qaeda, by golly you clearly do too.
Kindly turn over your WMD.

Gasp! I knew I never should have talked on my cell phone about going to the
hardware store to restock my stash of Weed-B-Gone. You've figured out the
code, Infidel Dog! Allah curse you!

And to think I believed that reading and analysing data from open
sources was a completely legal activity in this country.

Subversive! Thinking...there'll be none of that.

Well, I must confess I received my early training in critical thinking in that
hotbed of revolutionary training, the California public primary and secondary
school system of the 1960s and '70s. These 'madrassas' clearly had to be
stamped out if we're ever to win the war on terror. Fortunately for the
American way of life, over the last thirty years, through a combination of
political correctness, grade inflation and the effects of Prop. 13 on school
budgets, we've been successful in de-emphasizing the use of logic and reasoning
skills, and indeed almost all forms of debate that doesn't involve shouting at
each other, waving signs or suing. Take that, secular humanist zealots!

OTOH, the USAF
supposedly made the attempt to classify Maxwell's equations some years
back (stealth, don't you know), which would have been an interesting
exercise in ex-post facto censorship.

You've given me an idea, maybe I can sell Avagadro's number (he was a
Mole afterall) and Planck's constant on e-Bay.

You have to give potential buyers a tease -- just to whet their appetite, tell
them what a coulomb is for free, just to establish your bona fides. As for
Avogadro, tell them it's about 6.02 x 10^* -- they get to know what "*" is
after you get confirmation that the (cue Dr. Evil voice) "One Million D . . ."
(sound of No. 2 clearing his throat), "er, I mean One Hundred Billion
Dollars!", is safely in your numbered account (in the Caymans). You'll
probably have to settle for somewhere between $100,000,000 and $1 billion, but
when you go to pick it up, the best way for you to be inconspicuous is to drop
the hint that you're the CEO, CFO, etc. of some multi-billion dollar American
company that has gone into bankruptcy after the discovery of massive fraud by
the corporate executives, and that you're fleeing the country ahead of a likely
indictment. Given the hundreds if not thousands of people they see every week
with the same story, it's unlikely that they'll remember anything special about
you.

Guy

Howard Berkowitz wrote:

In article , fudog50
wrote:

You're right, I'll give it a rest,,,there is nothing
classified,,,
like I said sensitive maybe,,just a normal reaction to this stuff due
to years on the pointy end during the cold war,,,try to post that
stuff in the 80's,,,
While it may be that you feel you are free to post any kind of
sensitive **** on here because of an ego thing, and it is totally
unclassified,,,just remember, our friends used to be our enemies, and
just as fast as it changed,,, it could change again.
Like I said,,,just another piece of the puzzle. Go ahead and
keep showing the world how CONOPS are performed in a military ATC
environment and the pattern of the COMMS, very smart.
"Military" is the key word here, and if you still feel it's ok
to post to the world our military Comms during a time of war, then
keep going, then we will see who's side you are on.
You seem to forget that "usenet" is the entire world, not just
some people here in the states you are trying to impress.


You may or may not be aware of what an intelligence analyst will
actually do with such open source data. Having been in that role, were I
assigned to characterize US military operating procedures, and found
these posts, I'd start by asking some of the following questions:

1. Is Guy Alcala actually what he claims to be, or is this a US
disinformation operation posting slightly-altered-from-reality
data intended to confuse OSINT (Open Source Intelligence)?

snip

No, no, no! I'm the TECHINT guy, not the COMINT one. It's that Stern
character you mean (h'mm, Stern. It's probably a false flag, trying to make
us think he's being run by the Israelis. Clever plan, though; using a radio
scanner that anyone can buy from a Sporty's catalog to listen in to
unscrambled US military aviation comms -- it's ingenious. None of our
enemies would ever think of it).

Guy

In article ,
wrote:

You'll
probably have to settle for somewhere between $100,000,000 and $1
billion, but
when you go to pick it up, the best way for you to be inconspicuous is to
drop
the hint that you're the CEO, CFO, etc. of some multi-billion dollar
American
company that has gone into bankruptcy after the discovery of massive
fraud by
the corporate executives, and that you're fleeing the country ahead of a
likely
indictment. Given the hundreds if not thousands of people they see every
week
with the same story, it's unlikely that they'll remember anything special
about
you.

Are you suggesting a US-Nigeria union?

I suppose that my distress at following OPSEC apparently only
applies to us military folks.
I guess it is ok for civilians to violate "OPSEC' during time
of war?
(whether you agree or not, we are at war, where is your patriotism?
Why make it any easier for any potential enemy?)
Wouldn't it be horrible if the enemy used even a miniscule
part of your military A/C comms to add into a tactical strike?
It's your conscience now, can you live with it if even a
minute piece of your posting of CONOPS is used to plan an attack?
I'll give it rest,,,,just think twice about posting military
CONOPS during time of war,,,again,,you are 100% in violation of
current "OPSEC" guidelines.


On 21 May 2004 17:53:52 -0700, (miso) wrote:

It's really sad that they are still running single engine Cessna's in
the war on drugs given we lost two such planes in Columbia and US
citizens are still being held hostage from one of the crashes. I
wasn't aware the US had any of those Caravans registered in their own
name, rather than hide behind a shell corporation like "One Leasing".

As always, a nice job in mil air coms by Mr. Stern.


(AllanStern) wrote in message ...
Monday, 17 May 2004
Interesting comms today: some concerning one of the nation's newest acft,
the F/A-22 now at Tyndall AFB, and some about the good old days when "The Real
Stuff" was going on at Cape Canaveral, and I was there.

AIR TRANSPORT 400: DC-8, Little Rock (USAF Contractor)
8:58am: Lands Patrick. Later departs to Antigua, then to Ascension - both USAF
Eastern Test Range downrange sites.
[133.75]

N4667B: CE-208B Cessna Caravan, US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air Wing,
Patrick AFB.
9:17am: Departs Patrick.
2:50pm: Lands Patrick.
[133.75]

HAWK 85; F/A-18D, Beaufort MCAS VMFA(AW)-533
9:44am: Transitions area to Mayport NAF
[269.3, 273.55]

MAKOs 11, 12: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
10:01am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
[292.2, 138.125]

SHARK 21: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
10:25am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
10:45am: RTBs to HST.
[292.2, 307.1, 139.8]

AX 186: C-130T, Andrews AFB VR-53 "Capitol Express"
10:31am: Area transition. Might be C-40 acft replacing VR-53's C-130Ts, as
noted by Sandy in Colo recently.
[133.475, 132.15]

BRONCO 01: OV-10D, US State Dept US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air
Wing, Patrick AFB.
10:45am: Departs Patrick (flight of 2).
4:12pm: Lands Patrick.
[133.75]

AKULA 31: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
10:52am: Single ship, arrives at Avon Park Bombing Range.
[292.2, 307.1]

JOLLYs 11, 12: HH-60G Pave Hawk Helos, Patrick AFB 920RQW
11:51am: Departs Patrick; approaches at KMLB, Patrick.
[269.375]

PJ 610: P-3C, Whidbey Island NAS VP-69 "Totems" Sqdn
12:10pm: Lands Patrick.
[269.375]

HQ 475: SH-60B, Mayport NAF HSL-46 "Grandmasters" Sqdn
12:30pm: Area transition.
[132.65]

VDA 4813: AN-124, Volga Dnepr (Contractor)
2:30pm: Departs NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Facility. This huge Ukrainian
transport had RONd previous night after bringing large aerospace cargo. Note
RON at SLF instead of CCAFS whose runway is closed for construction.
[128.55, 132.65, 124.8, 133.3]

VAMPIRE 72: F/A-22, Tyndall AFB 325FW 43FS
2:45pm: Touch and go at Patrick on apparent fam flight through area; remains at
low altitude (and therefor VHF freqs). This is my first snag of comms from an
F/A-22. Was a bit too low and fast for me to get into my camera window.
Tyndall is USAF's only F/A-22 schoolhouse; so I expect to see more of them.
Made a wonderful shallow swooping pass over my house off of Patrick's Rnwy 20
before heading south along the coast. I LIKE this plane. Looks like it loves to
roll.
[133.75, 1312.65, 132.25]

SHARKs 21, 22, 23: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
3:00pm: Strafing at Avon Park Bombing Range.
[292.2, 285.725, 139.8]

MAKO 11 Flight: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
3:00pm: Hitting tgts at Avon Park.
3:04pm: MAKO 11 has to RTB HST with problem.
3:40pm: Balance of flight RTBs.
[292.2, 285.725, 307.1, 269.3, 239.25, 370.9, 322.5]

SHARK 89: C-130.
3:39pm: Area transition, to waypoint Nassau.
[119.825]

LIMA LIMA 38: P-3C Jacksonville NAS VP-30 "Pro's Nest" Sqdn.
3:45pm: Area transition.
[133.475]

ZANTOP 757: Zantop Intl (Charter), Ypsilanti MI
5:27pm: Area transition.
Those of us who were here in the 1960s Hey-days of the space program, remember
the ever-present Zantop acft at Patrick AFB, supporting operations. ZANTOP 757
engaged in some great reminiscences about those days; this pilot flew flights
into Patrick in the old days, and the 133.475 ATC was controlling flights back
then. Nice to hear them chat and to feel the nostalgia of my days during the
Gemini missions and the Saturn-Apollo moon-landing flights. I used to monitor
the action right from the beach in those days.

BOLT 13: KC-135R, MacDill 6AMW.
10:03pm: En route to Homestead.
[133.475, 119.825, 132.25]

AL STERN Satellite Beach FL (28-11N 80-36W) monitoring
Patrick AFB (KCOF) NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Fac (KX68)
Avon Park Bombing Range (KAGR) Cape Canaveral AFS (KXMR)
JSTARS E-8 Acft Integration Facility, Melbourne IAP (KMLB)
Worldwide Military HF Communications
Life Member: Missile, Space and Range Pioneers.
http://hometown.aol.com/allanstern/m...age/index.html (My Freqs)
http://hometown.aol.com/scanaddict/index.html (My Equipment)

Security is the responsibility of the originator of the message. The
feds can make their signals secure any old time they want to. If you
monitored GHFS (or whatever they renamed it) during the active part of
the war (before POTUS landed on the carrier and declared it over), you
heard plenty of scrambled signals. [ANDVT or something like that]

Blaming a civilian with a scanner for intercepting your message is
about as responsible as telling the old lie that the dog ate your
homework. Any foreign spook who wants this info will not depend on the
net but will simply set up shop and do the job himself (or herself as
the case may be).

fudog50 wrote in message . ..
I suppose that my distress at following OPSEC apparently only
applies to us military folks.
I guess it is ok for civilians to violate "OPSEC' during time
of war?
(whether you agree or not, we are at war, where is your patriotism?
Why make it any easier for any potential enemy?)
Wouldn't it be horrible if the enemy used even a miniscule
part of your military A/C comms to add into a tactical strike?
It's your conscience now, can you live with it if even a
minute piece of your posting of CONOPS is used to plan an attack?
I'll give it rest,,,,just think twice about posting military
CONOPS during time of war,,,again,,you are 100% in violation of
current "OPSEC" guidelines.


On 21 May 2004 17:53:52 -0700, (miso) wrote:

It's really sad that they are still running single engine Cessna's in
the war on drugs given we lost two such planes in Columbia and US
citizens are still being held hostage from one of the crashes. I
wasn't aware the US had any of those Caravans registered in their own
name, rather than hide behind a shell corporation like "One Leasing".

As always, a nice job in mil air coms by Mr. Stern.


(AllanStern) wrote in message ...
Monday, 17 May 2004
Interesting comms today: some concerning one of the nation's newest acft,
the F/A-22 now at Tyndall AFB, and some about the good old days when "The Real
Stuff" was going on at Cape Canaveral, and I was there.

AIR TRANSPORT 400: DC-8, Little Rock (USAF Contractor)
8:58am: Lands Patrick. Later departs to Antigua, then to Ascension - both USAF
Eastern Test Range downrange sites.
[133.75]

N4667B: CE-208B Cessna Caravan, US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air Wing,
Patrick AFB.
9:17am: Departs Patrick.
2:50pm: Lands Patrick.
[133.75]

HAWK 85; F/A-18D, Beaufort MCAS VMFA(AW)-533
9:44am: Transitions area to Mayport NAF
[269.3, 273.55]

MAKOs 11, 12: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
10:01am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
[292.2, 138.125]

SHARK 21: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
10:25am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
10:45am: RTBs to HST.
[292.2, 307.1, 139.8]

AX 186: C-130T, Andrews AFB VR-53 "Capitol Express"
10:31am: Area transition. Might be C-40 acft replacing VR-53's C-130Ts, as
noted by Sandy in Colo recently.
[133.475, 132.15]

BRONCO 01: OV-10D, US State Dept US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air
Wing, Patrick AFB.
10:45am: Departs Patrick (flight of 2).
4:12pm: Lands Patrick.
[133.75]

AKULA 31: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
10:52am: Single ship, arrives at Avon Park Bombing Range.
[292.2, 307.1]

JOLLYs 11, 12: HH-60G Pave Hawk Helos, Patrick AFB 920RQW
11:51am: Departs Patrick; approaches at KMLB, Patrick.
[269.375]

PJ 610: P-3C, Whidbey Island NAS VP-69 "Totems" Sqdn
12:10pm: Lands Patrick.
[269.375]

HQ 475: SH-60B, Mayport NAF HSL-46 "Grandmasters" Sqdn
12:30pm: Area transition.
[132.65]

VDA 4813: AN-124, Volga Dnepr (Contractor)
2:30pm: Departs NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Facility. This huge Ukrainian
transport had RONd previous night after bringing large aerospace cargo. Note
RON at SLF instead of CCAFS whose runway is closed for construction.
[128.55, 132.65, 124.8, 133.3]

VAMPIRE 72: F/A-22, Tyndall AFB 325FW 43FS
2:45pm: Touch and go at Patrick on apparent fam flight through area; remains at
low altitude (and therefor VHF freqs). This is my first snag of comms from an
F/A-22. Was a bit too low and fast for me to get into my camera window.
Tyndall is USAF's only F/A-22 schoolhouse; so I expect to see more of them.
Made a wonderful shallow swooping pass over my house off of Patrick's Rnwy 20
before heading south along the coast. I LIKE this plane. Looks like it loves to
roll.
[133.75, 1312.65, 132.25]

SHARKs 21, 22, 23: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
3:00pm: Strafing at Avon Park Bombing Range.
[292.2, 285.725, 139.8]

MAKO 11 Flight: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
3:00pm: Hitting tgts at Avon Park.
3:04pm: MAKO 11 has to RTB HST with problem.
3:40pm: Balance of flight RTBs.
[292.2, 285.725, 307.1, 269.3, 239.25, 370.9, 322.5]

SHARK 89: C-130.
3:39pm: Area transition, to waypoint Nassau.
[119.825]

LIMA LIMA 38: P-3C Jacksonville NAS VP-30 "Pro's Nest" Sqdn.
3:45pm: Area transition.
[133.475]

ZANTOP 757: Zantop Intl (Charter), Ypsilanti MI
5:27pm: Area transition.
Those of us who were here in the 1960s Hey-days of the space program, remember
the ever-present Zantop acft at Patrick AFB, supporting operations. ZANTOP 757
engaged in some great reminiscences about those days; this pilot flew flights
into Patrick in the old days, and the 133.475 ATC was controlling flights back
then. Nice to hear them chat and to feel the nostalgia of my days during the
Gemini missions and the Saturn-Apollo moon-landing flights. I used to monitor
the action right from the beach in those days.

BOLT 13: KC-135R, MacDill 6AMW.
10:03pm: En route to Homestead.
[133.475, 119.825, 132.25]

AL STERN Satellite Beach FL (28-11N 80-36W) monitoring
Patrick AFB (KCOF) NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Fac (KX68)
Avon Park Bombing Range (KAGR) Cape Canaveral AFS (KXMR)
JSTARS E-8 Acft Integration Facility, Melbourne IAP (KMLB)
Worldwide Military HF Communications
Life Member: Missile, Space and Range Pioneers.
http://hometown.aol.com/allanstern/m...age/index.html (My Freqs)
http://hometown.aol.com/scanaddict/index.html (My Equipment)

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, miso
confessed the following:

Security is the responsibility of the originator of the message.

"Shack!"

Blaming a civilian with a scanner for intercepting your message is
about as responsible as telling the old lie that the dog ate your
homework.

To piggyback "miso" further...

It's part of that old, "Loose lips sink ships" mantra...which
"fudog50" seems to be addressing when he asked:

I guess it is ok for civilians to violate "OPSEC' during time
of war?

Clearly the answer is an emphatic, "Well, duh!" Allan's posting is
after the fact...historical if you will. IOW he's not giving out
real-time or advance intelligence. Under your concern for OPSEC how
much time must pass before it would be permissible for Allan to post?

Again "fudog50" lamented:

(whether you agree or not, we are at war, where is your patriotism?
Why make it any easier for any potential enemy?)

Wrapping the flag AKA patriotism around your argument kinda gives you
some moral high ground. By your use of patriotism, folks opposed to
aspects of the Patriot Act or GWB/Cheney/Rove/Rumsfeld are
un-patriotic.

Wouldn't it be horrible if the enemy used even a miniscule
part of your military A/C comms to add into a tactical strike?

Awww come on now "fudog50" now you're just pandering. Put your
thinking cap on and contemplate probable targets and tactics. Think
those islamist ****s are going to go for a "fat juicy" civilian
airliner or an agile, mobile, and hostile military target?

Juvat

In article , fudog50
wrote:

I suppose that my distress at following OPSEC apparently only
applies to us military folks.

There is a school of thought that says OPSEC means never say anything
about anything. This is particularly true at the tactical level. At the
operational and strategic levels, the say-nothing policy neither works
in a democratic society, nor even necessarily helps military operations.

I can point to any number of military fiascoes -- Pearl Harbor, Desert
One -- where overemphasis on security inside the military led to
disaster, because people who needed a full picture didn't have it. Even
with properly classified data, the balance between overclassification
and real security is a constant juggling act.

Realistically, to make substantial use of open source material, one has
to have a significant analytic capability. Esepcially when dealing with
a free society, the amount of data often provides its own security -- it
overwhelms the analysts. fUSSR intelligence personnel have stated quite
often that one of the reason the fUSSR depended on spies rather than
open-source is that there was too much open source, and also they never
knew when open source might be disinformation or cover.

In a previous post, I gave some examples of what a competent analyst
would do variously if he were considering using this data, and, indeed,
whether an analyst might re-task collection guidance to provide the data
through different means. I would be interested in your specific
responses to these specific points on the value of the data in question,
rather than lectures on patriotism.

I guess it is ok for civilians to violate "OPSEC' during time
of war?
(whether you agree or not, we are at war, where is your patriotism?
Why make it any easier for any potential enemy?)
Wouldn't it be horrible if the enemy used even a miniscule
part of your military A/C comms to add into a tactical strike?

By that logic, no information about anything, including the behavior of
national leaders, should ever be made available. As I say, there is a
balance.

It's your conscience now, can you live with it if even a
minute piece of your posting of CONOPS is used to plan an attack?

EVERYTHING in counterintelligence planning is a balancing act. In
military operational planning, there has to be a good deal of staff
support, and willingness to listen to the intelligence people, before
lots of open source becomes relevant. I don't think EVERYONE in Iraqi
intelligence was incompetent, but Saddam wanted to hear what fit his
preconceptions. I would seriously question how much open source
intelligence is done by terrorists. I would especially doubt they are
likely to have the kind of analyst that stays concerned with following
US air operational technique over a long period.

The US and USSR did, as did some other powers -- but when resources are
limited, he who tries to track everything quickly becomes overwhelmed.
Traditionally, the glory jobs in intelligence are in collection, not
analysis, which led to situations such as an audit during Viet Nam,
showing that DIA was about 400 file drawers behind in looking at
collection reports, and it still kept coming.

I'll give it rest,,,,just think twice about posting military
CONOPS during time of war,,,again,,you are 100% in violation of
current "OPSEC" guidelines.