F-16 Source Code

The F-16 is a very popular airplane. I'm just curious who has copies of the source code to the plane and it's radar, etc.
Obviously the USAF does, but do the Israeli,
the Belgians, or anyone else?

-Thanks

The F-16 was built as an international fighter, and those countries that do
their own development and depot work, would have an interest in all
aspects of the flight computers. The radar and various other computer
code would also be available. I know the radar software was available
to our university, as many of us wrote algorithms against it for our Masters.
My groups project was to better track turbine velocities of targets, as a
possible enhancement to cruise missile detection. One would hope that
today the missiles would be designed to hide the turbine :-)

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote
The F-16 is a very popular airplane. I'm just curious who has copies of
the source code to the plane and it's radar, etc. Obviously the USAF does,
but do the Israeli, the Belgians, or anyone else?

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote in message
...
The F-16 is a very popular airplane. I'm just curious who has copies of
the source code to the plane and it's radar, etc.
Obviously the USAF does, but do the Israeli,
the Belgians, or anyone else?

For some boxes, we did not provide the source code. This hasn't kept the
Israeli's from uncompiling it and selling the technology to other countries.

"Glenfiddich" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:02:51 GMT, "C.D.Damron" wrote:

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote:
The F-16 is a very popular airplane. I'm just curious who has copies
of
the source code to the plane and it's radar, etc.
Obviously the USAF does, but do the Israeli,
the Belgians, or anyone else?

For some boxes, we did not provide the source code. This hasn't kept
the
Israeli's from uncompiling it and selling the technology to other
countries.

The USA is the only country to receive such code from Israel.
Check who owns F-16s - do you seriously imagine that Israel
would sell improved code to an enemy state?


Given that they sold Python AAM's and wanted to sell an
advanced AWACS style capability to China I wouldnt rule
it out.

Same thing happened with the improved Patriot programming.
Israel had a vital interest in making it work right - and got
enough real-life experience to see what needed fixing

And some sources believe they then sold that know how to China

http://the-tech.mit.edu/V112/N13/china.13w.html
http://www.aviationnow.com/content/p...10430/aw34.htm

Keith

"Glenfiddich" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:18:29 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:
These two tentative reports are years old - and are still unconfirmed.
If there were much truth in them, they'd have been confirmed by now.

So, you expect Naval Air Systems Command to release a statement?

"Glenfiddich" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:18:29 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:


"Glenfiddich" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:02:51 GMT, "C.D.Damron" wrote:

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote:
The F-16 is a very popular airplane. I'm just curious who has
copies
of
the source code to the plane and it's radar, etc.
Obviously the USAF does, but do the Israeli,
the Belgians, or anyone else?

For some boxes, we did not provide the source code.
This hasn't kept the Israeli's from uncompiling it
and selling the technology to other countries.

The USA is the only country to receive such code from Israel.
Check who owns F-16s - do you seriously imagine that Israel
would sell improved code to an enemy state?

Given that they sold Python AAM's and wanted to sell an
advanced AWACS style capability to China I wouldnt rule
it out.

The Python is an Israeli-developed missile, they have the right
to sell it to any market they're not locked out of.

The point Keith is making is that they do deal with nations that we have had
on the military no-no list; your attempt to justify that with the above does
not change that fact.


The AWACS was offered openly, and cancelled at the US' request.
That's wrong?

You are really oversimplifying that situation. We requested it and the
Israelis still wanted to pursue it--it took a bit of arm-twisting to get
them to back down on that Phalcon sale.


Now, the subject was F-16 code - how many F-16s does China fly?

Well, they are flying two new FBW aircraft, aren't they? And IIRC Elbit is
trying to sell them a radar to equip it with?


Same thing happened with the improved Patriot programming.
Israel had a vital interest in making it work right - and got
enough real-life experience to see what needed fixing

And some sources believe they then sold that know how to China

Some sources will believe anything...

If China got secret US technology, they most likely got it directly
from the US - didn't you follow the news about Chinese activities
inside the USA?

"Most likely" in whose opinion?

Misdirecting blame is a standard way to deflect attention.

Then why do you do it?

That's been done before - remember how Israeli agent Pollard
was blamed for exposing US agents to the Russians?
And then we heard that Aldrich Ames, the American who wrote
the report blaming Pollard, was the traitor?

OFCS, are you now going to claim Pollard was innocent of espionage against
the US?


http://the-tech.mit.edu/V112/N13/china.13w.html
http://www.aviationnow.com/content/p...10430/aw34.htm

These two tentative reports are years old - and are still unconfirmed.
If there were much truth in them, they'd have been confirmed by now.

Why do you say that?

Brooks

"Glenfiddich" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 04:25:46 GMT, "Kevin Brooks" wrote:
"Glenfiddich" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:18:29 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:
"Glenfiddich" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:02:51 GMT, "C.D.Damron" wrote:
"Charles Talleyrand" wrote:
The F-16 is a very popular airplane.
I'm just curious who has copies of
the source code to the plane and it's radar, etc.
Obviously the USAF does, but do the Israeli,
the Belgians, or anyone else?

For some boxes, we did not provide the source code.
This hasn't kept the Israeli's from uncompiling it
and selling the technology to other countries.

The USA is the only country to receive such code from Israel.
Check who owns F-16s - do you seriously imagine that Israel
would sell improved code to an enemy state?

Given that they sold Python AAM's and wanted to sell an
advanced AWACS style capability to China I wouldnt rule
it out.

The Python is an Israeli-developed missile, they have the right
to sell it to any market they're not locked out of.

The point Keith is making is that they do deal with nations that we have
had
on the military no-no list; your attempt to justify that with the above
does
not change that fact.

Yes, Israel has no morals.
However, it is America that is rearming Egypt and other Arab states...

They are not on the no-no list. And FYI, Egypt signed a peace accord with
Israel before it started receiving US arms. As to Israeli morals, that would
be your strawman.


The AWACS was offered openly, and cancelled at the US' request.
That's wrong?

You are really oversimplifying that situation. We requested it and the
Israelis still wanted to pursue it--it took a bit of arm-twisting to get
them to back down on that Phalcon sale.

And they did - so?

It was not a simple, "The US requested and Israel agreed".


Now, the subject was F-16 code - how many F-16s does China fly?

Well, they are flying two new FBW aircraft, aren't they? And IIRC Elbit
is
trying to sell them a radar to equip it with?

So, you agree they don't have F-16s, but attempt to imply some other
skulduggery?

Nobody but you has trotted out this "Chinese F-16" mumbo. The fact is that
modern aircraft are a product of many, many systems and subsystems, one of
which is the FBW control system, another the radar, etc. Israel has indeed
sold military aerospace products to the PRC, and open sources don't seem to
know what the limit to those sales is. Python we know about, we also know
that have been trying to sell their helmet-mounted sighting system to the
PLAAF. They are trying to radars to the PLAAF for their newest indigenous
fighters (Elta, IIRC--not Elbit as I stated earlier--that was a brain fart).
There have been (unsubstantiated to date) reports that Derby may have been
provided. There have been substantial claims in various press and trade
journals regarding transfer of Lavi technology (h'mmm...that was a FBW
aircraft, wasn't it?) to the PRC (which would be a real shame, as we know
who footed the bill for Lavi development, and it wasn't the Israelis). So we
have some confirmed fire and a fair amount of additional smoke--and you want
to discount out of hand the Israelis transferring source codes to the PRC?
Unwise IMO.


Same thing happened with the improved Patriot programming.
Israel had a vital interest in making it work right - and got
enough real-life experience to see what needed fixing

And some sources believe they then sold that know how to China
Some sources will believe anything...

If China got secret US technology, they most likely got it directly
from the US - didn't you follow the news about Chinese activities
inside the USA?

"Most likely" in whose opinion?

In mine - and that of several others who've followed the
several Chinese espionage scandals.

Care to elaborate about specifically who those others are that claim that
China was more likely to have obtained Patriot info from the US as opposed
to Israel? Sounds like you are gearing up your smoke generator here....


Misdirecting blame is a standard way to deflect attention.

Then why do you do it?

Sorry, you'll have to point out the misdirection in what I wrote.

See above where you misdirected the blame for where the Chinese allegedly
obtained Patriot data from (allegedly) Israel to instead the US. Pretty
straightforward deflection of blame right there. Then a bit earlier you
blamed the US for somehow causing the Israelis to sell their military wares
to nations that the US refuses to sell to based upon some kind of flimsty
reasoning that we sell weapons to Egypt (ironic, since every arms sale to
Egypt has resulted in Israel cranking new aid and/or weapons concessions
from the US--they probably *like* the fact that we sell arms to Egypt, it
being such a lucrative method of increasing their own share of the pie). And
below you try to draw fire on the Pollard case. Any other examples you'd
care to have pointed out?


That's been done before - remember how Israeli agent Pollard
was blamed for exposing US agents to the Russians?
And then we heard that Aldrich Ames, the American who wrote
the report blaming Pollard, was the traitor?

OFCS, are you now going to claim Pollard was innocent of espionage
against
the US?

If you want to jump in, at least do everyone the courtesy of
actually reading what you're replying to.

OF COURSE Pollard spied on the USA - he pleaded guilty, FCS!
But Pollard only stole documents, not names of agents - he never
even had access to those names.

Then you are nitpicking. He commited espionage against the US on behalf of
Israel, case closed. That doesn't do much for your argument that we can
trust Israel with classified US source codes, now does it?


My point was that US intelligence agencies *wrongly* blamed Pollard
for telling the Russians the identities of US spies over there.
That has been now proven to be the work of Aldrich Ames.
Who, coincidentally, was the CIA agent who wrote a report
which blamed Pollard for what he had done.

Provide some decent corroboration. From what I have read, the claim was that
Pollard passed information to Israel, much of it regarding Soviet weapons,
and that some of that info may have been passed on to the Soviets (either
knowingly or unknowingly). I doubt anyone really thinks that an intel
analyst working for the USN even had *access* to any "list of agents". But
there is a reason why we restrict release of some information based upon the
threat to "sources and methods"--sometimes just the fact that we know
something can provide the bad guys with a fairly good idea of where we got
the information, so you don't have to give up specific names. The only
account I read that followed *your* Pollard-as-Ames-victim theory was what
appears to be a rather half-baked diatribe from some loon in an intel
related discussion forum--not very convincing.


It is, of course, fairly common for cops and intelligence agencies to
blame *all* unsolved cases on the first likely suspect to be caught...

WRT China, they did this with Dr. Wen Ho Li - who knows how many
Chinese agents slipped away once they were convincd they'd found
the one Big Spy?

However, while Israel may well have sold some technology where
it shouldn't have gone, there is STILL no proof that she has sold any
American secrets - only unfounded rumors, like these.

Some fire, lots of smoke...not a good horse to bet on IMO.


http://the-tech.mit.edu/V112/N13/china.13w.html
http://www.aviationnow.com/content/p...10430/aw34.htm
These two tentative reports are years old - and are still unconfirmed.
If there were much truth in them, they'd have been confirmed by now.

Why do you say that?

Because it's too good a story for the press to let die, IF it
had any factual basis.
Or do you subscribe to the theory that Jews censor all the media?

No, I suscribe to the theory that the DoD does not release such info to the
media on a routine basis, so if you are looking for an official, "they done
that", you better not be holding your breath.

Brooks

Glenfiddich wrote:

Now, the subject was F-16 code - how many F-16s does China fly?

It doesn't matter. What's important are the algorithms in the code. That
teaches others the scanning and filtering techniques (to name only two). You
don't need to be trying to copy a F-16 radar. You can use the algorithms in
you're own radar software. Reverse engineering of software is an old process
used by many to learn what they couldn't develop on their own or just to save
time and money.

--
Jim

carry on




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On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 02:19:03 GMT, Glenfiddich wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:18:29 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:

http://the-tech.mit.edu/V112/N13/china.13w.html
http://www.aviationnow.com/content/p...10430/aw34.htm

These two tentative reports are years old - and are still unconfirmed.
If there were much truth in them, they'd have been confirmed by now.

In what sense is the 2nd story -- entitled "U.S. Confirms Israeli
Missiles Used by China" -- unconfirmed?

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: , but first subtract 275 and reverse
the last two letters).

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 22:51:46 GMT, Glenfiddich wrote:

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:02:51 GMT, "C.D.Damron" wrote:

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote:
The F-16 is a very popular airplane. I'm just curious who has copies of
the source code to the plane and it's radar, etc.
Obviously the USAF does, but do the Israeli,
the Belgians, or anyone else?

For some boxes, we did not provide the source code. This hasn't kept the
Israeli's from uncompiling it and selling the technology to other countries.

The USA is the only country to receive such code from Israel.
Check who owns F-16s - do you seriously imagine that Israel
would sell improved code to an enemy state?

Well, they are selling advanced radars, using US technology, to
the PRC.

Same thing happened with the improved Patriot programming.
Israel had a vital interest in making it work right - and got
enough real-life experience to see what needed fixing

They had/have nowhere near the US experience with the
Patriot. And they do not have the resources to "improve"
it.

Al Minyard