Something Fishy with Kerry's being a "Hero"

"R. David Steele" wrote in message

| The military has always been the police.
|
|No, only not really. Military forces were only used for civilian law
|enforcement when the sheriff, marshall, etc. was faced with the
equivalent
|of an insurrection. The first historical incident of this kind in the
U.S.
|is the Whiskey Rebellion, IIRC.

The title of sheriff was used for special knights in the King's
service.

In English Law he is sometimes called the shire-reeve. He is the principal
officer in the county. In Scotish Law he was a judicial as well as
ministerial officer.

American pratice follows the English since at least the founding of the
Republic.

| That was one of the
| missions of the militia.
|
|The militia was, and still can be, used to aid constitutional law
|enforcement officers. Its use was rare.
|
|Washington called out State Militias and lead them in the field to
surpress
|the Whiskey Rebellion. He is the only U.S. president to ever lead an
army
|in the field while in office.

The militia was used at local level as the posse and the fire
brigade.

I'm sure that it sometimes was used as a fire brigade and to enforce local
law.. But that does not mean it was the primimary law enforcement
mechanism.

The posse commitatus was a totally different enterprise.

| Until the late 1800s, the military was
| the primary federal police.
|
|No, the primary "federal police" authority be the U.S. Marshall. That
|person could have one or more deputies. Territories could also for
counties
|and elect county sheriffs. Towns had marshalls. The Army was there
|primarily to control hostile aboriginals (the word "indian" now being
|non-PC).
|
|During the Reconstuction period in the former Confederacy the Army had a
|MUCH more active police role, but that was a very short period and few
Army
|officers wanted that duty.

The US Marshall, I believe, did not come into existence until the
late 1800s.

The U.S. Marshall service dates to 1789. See
http://www.usdoj.gov/marshals/usmshist.html

Until then the military did the federal function.

No, it did not.

Even today the FBI, Marshals and others base their authority on
that of an Army officer.

Where did you ever get this? The authority of the FBI is derived from the
Attorney General. See above for Marshall's authority.

| Due to abuses, that is why the Army
| was restricted by the PCA (congress can give permission for the
| Army to engage in police work, the Navy is not restricted).
|
|You are correct that percieve Army excesses were the genesis of the PCA.
|The Navy is not subject to the PCA, but is subject to a SECNAVINST from
|about 1919 that imposes the same limitations.

However we have used the Marines to do law enforcement. It was
just a few years ago that the Marines were sent into the South
Central LA to stop rioting.

Back in '65, IIRC, the 82nd Airborne was used during the Detroit Riots. In
'71 (IIRC) elements of of the 101st Airborne were deployed to NAS Quonset
Point, RI to be held in standby in the event of civil disturbances due to a
big-time civil rights trial in Hartford, CT.

IOW military forces CAN be used in certain circumstances. Read the Posse
Commitatus Act for further information.

|As a general rule the police have, as their primary fuction, the
|apprehension of criminals. They do not have a duty to protect any given
|citizen. But their duty is APPREHENSION of criminals. They may use
force,
|including deadly force, when required by circumstance.
|
|The soldier has no inherant duty to apprehend anyone. Within his rules
of
|engagement he may use whatever tactics, including deadly force, that he
sees
|as necessary to the accomplishment of his mission.
|
|Or, put another way, the police officer has a general duty to announce
|himself and give an accused time to surrender; a soldier can just bang
away.

Not true. Otherwise the military would just kill all civilians.

Bull****. Does the phrase Law of War have any meaning for you?

Under the rules we operate under, there must be reasonable
threat. If an enemy surrenders, we can not just execute them.

Ayup. Law of War thing.

And the police can use deadly force if they are resisted.

I think I said that.

Remember, the military's mission is not to kill everyone and
anyone. It is to force the other side to accept the will of our
politicians.

I think I said this, too, in my reference to "rules of engagement."

Likewise the police are there to force the American
people to accept the will of the politicians (ie laws).

The police exist to apprehend criminals. In our republican system laws come
from folks elected to office. The police enforce those laws.

Nor are service members allowed to kill fellow service members.

Well, DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bill Kambic

If, by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist, racist,
culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist, lookist, ableist,
sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist,
phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other violation of the rules of
political correctness, known or unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you
to get over it.

On 2/27/04 8:42 AM, in article ,
"Pechs1" wrote:

SNIP

Garbage and how much 'international law' was ignored when we preemtively
invaded Iraq.


Ouch. Guess I should have stayed home then. How many U.N. Resolutions were
ignored by Iraq?

SNIP
david As for Saddam, it does appear that he was supporting
terrorists, including al Qaeda, which includes training bases in
northern Iraq. With Sad dam gone, most of the "structure" of the
middle East is gone. It basically destabilize the whole region. BRBR


tyou really aren't that clueless are you?


That's the second time you've said that about this issue Pechs (at least
since I've been counting). Ansar Al Islam in northeastern Iraq was linked
early on to al Qaeda. Not the sole reason for going to war, but certainly
an indication of the sort of miscreants you could find in country.

It is an attempt to nation build a country that is western(meaning USA)
leaning
in the back yard of other Arab nations that are not. It just isn't working and
the military is taking the brunt of it all.


That's certainly one interpretation. The military is currently fading out
of Iraq and training locals to take over. We now have an exit strategy from
Iraq instead of languishing in OSW as we did for 12 years--sending pilots
over the beach for no real good reason to get shot at.

Continual defiance against U.N. resolutions, failure to obey demarkation
orders, the threat of WMD (which Saddam *did* have *and* use *and* postured
as if he still possessed), links to terrorism, threats against U.S.
Interests, and an oppressive regime were enough reasons to go to war.

Not to mention that preemptively going into Iraq was the right thing to
do--in the same way rounding up 20-or-so Arab students who were in the U.S.
taking flight instruction in the spring/summer of 2001 would have been the
right thing to do.

Imagine how people would have been up in arms over THAT mess--ACLU and the
like.

P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

My only regret is that we didn't remove him from power in 1991 (which
admittedly at the time I thought was inappropriate)... Although then the
debate would have been how we would have become an imperialist power.

--Woody

david- The military has always been the police. That was one of the
missions of the militia. Until the late 1800s, the military was
the primary federal police. Due to abuses, that is why the Army
was restricted by the PCA (congress can give permission for the
Army to engage in police work, the Navy is not restricted). BRBR

You and the tarver dude need to spend a little time in the military, of today.
We learned combat, not saber rattling.


David Police do the same thing. Likewise the military are not cold
blooded murders that you make them out to be. BRBR

Kill the other guy in the aircraft, hopefully have the burning wreckage fall
into his kids school yard. Make the other guy hurt more than you, force him
into negotiations, end the conflict under favorable to you terms asap..Buy
killing them w/o prejudice.


David Saddam's sons
chose to fight, much like the situation at Ruby Ridge or Waco. BRBR

Yikes, to equate these two with a war is truly absurd.

The 'police' and the 'military' are not the same but your boy GWB sure is
trying to make them so by placing them in a situation that is not win-able..

David-
We volunteered. And
this is far more "fun" than training missions. Or civilian life.
BRBR

"We"? What branch of the military were you in? Years and what was your job??



P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Doug- Ouch. Guess I should have stayed home then. How many U.N. Resolutions
were
ignored by Iraq? BRBR

Look, I am very proud of the military and how well they conducted this and the
previous conflict in Iraq, VERY proud to have been a part of such a motivated,
well equipped and well led bunch BUT today in Iraq. A Boulder guy was home from
Iraq In the paper he stated his room mate was gunned down in Iraq while
guarding a gas station...THAT is tragic. To use the military for these
'mission's is sad and getting sadder.


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Bill,

IOW military forces CAN be used in certain circumstances. Read the Posse
Commitatus Act for further information.

Good advice, except that David will likely misinterpret it - as he seems to
misinterpret much in this NG.

--
Mike Kanze

"Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics
won't take an interest in you."

- Pericles (430 B.C.)


"Bill Kambic" wrote in message
...
"R. David Steele" wrote in message
[rest snipped]

On 2/28/04 8:29 AM, in article ,
"Pechs1" wrote:

Doug- Ouch. Guess I should have stayed home then. How many U.N.
Resolutions
were
ignored by Iraq? BRBR

Look, I am very proud of the military and how well they conducted this and the
previous conflict in Iraq, VERY proud to have been a part of such a motivated,
well equipped and well led bunch BUT today in Iraq. A Boulder guy was home
from
Iraq In the paper he stated his room mate was gunned down in Iraq while
guarding a gas station...THAT is tragic. To use the military for these
'mission's is sad and getting sadder.


Fair enough.

P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

David- 1) I am a democrat. But Kerry is not the one I would support.
I would prefer Zell Miller. Edwards might do. BRBR

I don't care what label you place on yourself, what pigeon hole you occupy.

david- 2) We are winning. Our causality rate is the lowest we have had
in any conflict. Why ignore that we lost 27 per day in Vietnam,
500 per day in WW2? Hell, the two years after we conquered
Germany we had the same problems with nazi forces doing guerilla
warfare. BRBR

We had the local police force in Germany operating in a matter of days. After
WWII, we had the Japanese provide police force duties in places
like....VietNam.

David 22 years, finished in Naval Intel.

Does that mean you were in the Navy? Or a civilian contractor.

P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer