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#1
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Ragnar wrote in message ... snipped generally acurrate stuff Its an interceptor, which is what the F-15 was also designed to be. Recce models of the 25 came AFTER. Err... yes and no, equaly distributed. According to the Deputy of the Chief Constructor Valentin Aleksandrovich Stepanov, official history of MiG-25 design is: - 1959, research for a FIGHTER capable to intercept A-12; - 1960, general design solution ; - 1961, March 10-A.I. Mikoyan reported about -starting- of the design prototype E-155; - 1962, Mockup commision assembled for RECONNAISSANCE version; - 1963, December-very first prototype brought out from the factory; - 1964, MARCH 6-first flight of the RECONNAISSANCE prototype (E-155R-1) by Alexandar Fedotov. - 1964, SEPTEMBER 9-first flight of the FIGHTER prototype (E-155P-1). Now, having in mind that there were no major -aerodynamical- changes in MiG-25P/R, the "mockup" commision, probably, mainly had to deal with arrangement of the nose-installed equipment while the prototype was in construction-maybe even more for the convenience of the flight test equipment placement in the "steel" nose of R version. Both were tested for flight performance (needed for a fighter) and modified accordingly-the aerodynamic/mechanical flaws were the same on the both version. The installation of "Smerch" fighter radar was known from Tu-128 "Fiddler" and MiG YE-151/152 prototypes and I speculate it was a "no big deal" to build a "functional" fighter prototype (or at least with ballast and test equipment), but when the R-60 test missilet firing begun, the thrust/exaust and assymetrical load when that huge and hevy missile(s) was fired created flight problems. To rectify this, automatic compensation of the tail surfaces was added on a fighter prototype-which was probably retained on both serial fighter and recce versions (since the simmilar compensation is needed for a bomb dropping on RB version. So, MiG-25 was designed to be a fighter, but a -recconnaissance- prototype flew first! Nele NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA |
#2
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"Nele VII" wrote in message ... Ragnar wrote in message ... snipped generally acurrate stuff Its an interceptor, which is what the F-15 was also designed to be. Recce models of the 25 came AFTER. Err... yes and no, equaly distributed. According to the Deputy of the Chief Constructor Valentin Aleksandrovich Stepanov, official history of MiG-25 design is: - 1959, research for a FIGHTER capable to intercept A-12; - 1960, general design solution ; - 1961, March 10-A.I. Mikoyan reported about -starting- of the design prototype E-155; - 1962, Mockup commision assembled for RECONNAISSANCE version; Equally distributed? Your own post says different. The interceptor came first in development. |
#3
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Icarus wrote in message ...
Yes, a nice air show demonstration. Whats the COMBAT record of the Su-27 again? That was a dogfight simulation between Su 27 and F-15...if those had been real missiles and not a simulated ones F-15 would have ended up in flames. Yet the F-15 has a 120-0 kill record, mostly against Soviet airplanes. Hmmmm. . . . FYI a Yugoslavian MiG 29 shot down one F-15...so much for unchallenged record-nothing is perfect, it all depends on pilot...In 99% of cases, Soviet airplanes were never flown by Soviet/Russian pilots but by pilots who often lacked proper training...Not even the Soviet instructors could make a difference and get through to these pilots-as you probably know, Soviets gave their planes to every country with similar regime-that doesn't mean they were flown by proper people (and I won't even mention how poorly those planes were taken care of)...Different cultures give different pilots-NATO conducted research which showed that different countries had different accident percentages-it had a lot to do with pilot skill...Norwegian pilots are somewhat different than the US ones, same thing is for Russian/Chinese etc... Ikarus, nemoj da lupas! Ja sam bio aktivan na yu.forum.aeronautics godinama, znam ljude, pratim avijaciju i nisam nikad cuo da je Yu 29-tka oborila F-15! Ko je, pobogu, bio pilot? Kako to da niko pametan nije objavio na YFA? Sorry to everybody, native language "rubbing" on the Yu MiG29/F-15 stuff. FWIW, there has been-uncorfirmed-rumour-about four Ethyopian Su-27 and four Erithreyan MiG-29 "clash", ending in three to zip (or was it 2-0?) victory for Su-27s. Reportedly, pilots were Russian (Su-27) and Ukrainian (MiG-29) instructors/mecenaries. Weapons used: R-27s (all missed), R-73. Please, detail the difference for us. Icarus won't provide one because there isn't any and that I wrote him in our native language. I'm sure you know how to use google, you'll probably find some mpeg's of Somersault and other maneuvres yourself... If not, here is a good link to start with: http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/RAP.html Yes, very interesting that the Soviets designed ejection seats that way - almost as if they assumed from the beginning that their planes would get shot down in droves. I guess safety and human lives mean nothing to you... Icarus, if you want to make a point then look Google yourself and you will find that K-36DM WAS evaluated by US and it has been found that it is absolutely superior to ACES-II. Also, there was some speculation about possible licence-production. True or not, -We'll see that in the series production F-22 ;-) . I note it wasn't an F-15. I see the F-15s shot down 3 MiG-25s. How many F-15s did the Mig-25s shoot down? Oh, whats that? ZERO, you say. Hmmmm . . FYI-MiG 25 was primarily a Soviet version of SR 71, it isn't a fighter...there were some versions that had been used as interceptors however it was MiG 31 that was built for that specific role, not the MiG 25... I had chosen to compare MiG 25 and F-15 (and they actually can't be compared-recon./fighter) only to show nothing is perfect and invunerable...you somehow missed the point...Once again, my bet is on the Su 27 family, not the MiG's. Icarus, there have been -rumours- about MiG-25 victory over F-15 (Syria/Israel). But your stating that MiG-25 IS NOT a fighter plane is a pure nonsense because: -MiG-25 is a FIGHTER but is built in a recce version as well; -shot down an F/-18 in Sesert Storm 1 (confirmed by US sources); -Iraqis had ACES flying MiG-25 during Iran-Iraq war-moreover, it was an "elite" unit (accorting to Tom Cooper), shooting down everything from F-5Es , F-4Ds to F-14As (and vice-versa, of course). Nemoj, co'ce, da se brukas... Nele NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA |
#4
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Nemoj, co'ce, da se brukas...
Ma ne mogu pustit covjeka da uporno zdvaja nad time kako je F-15 najjebeniji avion na kugli zemaljskoj...inace, vijest da je YU 29 srusila F 15 nasao sam na nekoj stranici, al hebi ga, ne mogu odgovarati za autenticnost-ti ces to malo bolje znat...kod nas nisu napadali. A sto se K 36 tice znam da je vojna stampa uvijek tvrdila kako ne postoji bolje sjedalo, tako je barem bilo pred 2 godine, ne mogu ni ja pratit svaku sitnicu... Pozdrav! |
#5
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OK, al udri argumentima, brt'e... Nemo' da nagadjas... citiraj... ako treba
ucitaj svu ovu NG s pocetka godine... ako ces linkove, poslacu ti... Nele NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA Icarus wrote in message ... Nemoj, co'ce, da se brukas... Ma ne mogu pustit covjeka da uporno zdvaja nad time kako je F-15 najjebeniji avion na kugli zemaljskoj...inace, vijest da je YU 29 srusila F 15 nasao sam na nekoj stranici, al hebi ga, ne mogu odgovarati za autenticnost-ti ces to malo bolje znat...kod nas nisu napadali. A sto se K 36 tice znam da je vojna stampa uvijek tvrdila kako ne postoji bolje sjedalo, tako je barem bilo pred 2 godine, ne mogu ni ja pratit svaku sitnicu... Pozdrav! |
#6
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"Icarus" wrote in message ...
Nemoj, co'ce, da se brukas... Ma ne mogu pustit covjeka da uporno zdvaja nad time kako je F-15 najjebeniji avion na kugli zemaljskoj...inace, vijest da je YU 29 srusila F 15 nasao sam na nekoj stranici, al hebi ga, ne mogu odgovarati za autenticnost-ti ces to malo bolje znat...kod nas nisu napadali. A sto se K 36 tice znam da je vojna stampa uvijek tvrdila kako ne postoji bolje sjedalo, tako je barem bilo pred 2 godine, ne mogu ni ja pratit svaku sitnicu... Pozdrav! Icarus, No Yugoslav pilot made any claim against NATO aircraft. Would you care to tell me the serial of this F-15 that you claim was shot down. Please don't bring to the newsgroup the picture of the "ANNUAL INSP C/W" - it was a combat-jettisoned F-15 fuel tank from the MiG-29/F-15C encounter on 26 March 1999. Both MiG-29s launched no missiles and fell with their weapons loads (R-27 & R-73) in Bosnia. TJ |
#7
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"Nele VII" wrote in message ...
Icarus wrote in message ... Yes, a nice air show demonstration. Whats the COMBAT record of the Su-27 again? That was a dogfight simulation between Su 27 and F-15...if those had been real missiles and not a simulated ones F-15 would have ended up in flames. Yet the F-15 has a 120-0 kill record, mostly against Soviet airplanes. Hmmmm. . . . FYI a Yugoslavian MiG 29 shot down one F-15...so much for unchallenged record-nothing is perfect, it all depends on pilot...In 99% of cases, Soviet airplanes were never flown by Soviet/Russian pilots but by pilots who often lacked proper training...Not even the Soviet instructors could make a difference and get through to these pilots-as you probably know, Soviets gave their planes to every country with similar regime-that doesn't mean they were flown by proper people (and I won't even mention how poorly those planes were taken care of)...Different cultures give different pilots-NATO conducted research which showed that different countries had different accident percentages-it had a lot to do with pilot skill...Norwegian pilots are somewhat different than the US ones, same thing is for Russian/Chinese etc... Ikarus, nemoj da lupas! Ja sam bio aktivan na yu.forum.aeronautics godinama, znam ljude, pratim avijaciju i nisam nikad cuo da je Yu 29-tka oborila F-15! Ko je, pobogu, bio pilot? Kako to da niko pametan nije objavio na YFA? Sorry to everybody, native language "rubbing" on the Yu MiG29/F-15 stuff. FWIW, there has been-uncorfirmed-rumour-about four Ethyopian Su-27 and four Erithreyan MiG-29 "clash", ending in three to zip (or was it 2-0?) victory for Su-27s. Reportedly, pilots were Russian (Su-27) and Ukrainian (MiG-29) instructors/mecenaries. Weapons used: R-27s (all missed), R-73. Please, detail the difference for us. Icarus won't provide one because there isn't any and that I wrote him in our native language. I'm sure you know how to use google, you'll probably find some mpeg's of Somersault and other maneuvres yourself... If not, here is a good link to start with: http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/RAP.html Yes, very interesting that the Soviets designed ejection seats that way - almost as if they assumed from the beginning that their planes would get shot down in droves. I guess safety and human lives mean nothing to you... Icarus, if you want to make a point then look Google yourself and you will find that K-36DM WAS evaluated by US and it has been found that it is absolutely superior to ACES-II. Also, there was some speculation about possible licence-production. True or not, -We'll see that in the series production F-22 ;-) . I note it wasn't an F-15. I see the F-15s shot down 3 MiG-25s. How many F-15s did the Mig-25s shoot down? Oh, whats that? ZERO, you say. Hmmmm . . FYI-MiG 25 was primarily a Soviet version of SR 71, it isn't a fighter...there were some versions that had been used as interceptors however it was MiG 31 that was built for that specific role, not the MiG 25... I had chosen to compare MiG 25 and F-15 (and they actually can't be compared-recon./fighter) only to show nothing is perfect and invunerable...you somehow missed the point...Once again, my bet is on the Su 27 family, not the MiG's. Icarus, there have been -rumours- about MiG-25 victory over F-15 (Syria/Israel). But your stating that MiG-25 IS NOT a fighter plane is a pure nonsense because: -MiG-25 is a FIGHTER but is built in a recce version as well; -shot down an F/-18 in Sesert Storm 1 (confirmed by US sources); -Iraqis had ACES flying MiG-25 during Iran-Iraq war-moreover, it was an "elite" unit (accorting to Tom Cooper), shooting down everything from F-5Es , F-4Ds to F-14As (and vice-versa, of course). Nemoj, co'ce, da se brukas... Nele NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA Can't we just agree that you can't compare different fighters based entirely on empirical data from individual engagements? As described, we don't know what the comparitive pilot quality was, what the rules of engagement were, or what combat conditions were for each side. I just finished the Cooper Iran-Iraq book, and maybe reading it over the course of a few months I missed the part about MiG-25's being flown by aces (though I'm sure I would have remembered even a single F-14 being credited to one of them; also, I do remember Cooper's description of a Foxbat being shot down by an F-5). Also, don't confuse "elite" with pilot expertise - we're talking about an air force largely under direct control of Saddam Hussein (Cooper raises the issue of the lack of autonomy for fighter pilots at least in the early phases of the war). Being "elite" could very well have a lot to do with political connections or simple political correctness. |
#8
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Any records on Nato or neutral pilots who have flown both the Eagle and the Flanker, and their comments/views? Regards... |
#9
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"Bjørnar Bolsøy" wrote in message ...
Any records on Nato or neutral pilots who have flown both the Eagle and the Flanker, and their comments/views? Regards... I would be surprised if they provided any comments that pointed to an over-all superiority of one of the planes. As well know, one of a fighter pilots most crucial skills is highlighting the advantages of whatever plane he's flying against those of an opponent. What's not as understood is that pilots aren't supposed to be critical of their planes beyond the extent needed to point out their weaknesses and learn to avoid them. In Yeager's book there's a story about fighter pilots being invited to test fly the hot new F-100. Unsurprisingly, these guys loved every minute of it. However, none of them paid much attention to those areas of its flight regime that had worried Yeager - they were only looking at what made the plane so hot. Unfortunately, in hopes of quelling fears, NA's flight-test chief took up one of the early Huns and flew a profile directly risking the sort of directional instability problems Yeager warned of - only to lose his life when the plane disintegrated. |
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