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In rec.aviation.military Mike wrote:
Truthseeker wrote: Forwarded: On Monday, June 6, 2005, the attorney for the USS Liberty Veterans Association will file a report with the Department of Defense detailing the war crimes the Israelis committed during their June 8, 1967 attack on the USS Liberty. Is this the same LVA attorney who the LVA claim in its "press release" was "an Air Force intelligence officer in Vietnam in 1967" yet has stated he was in fact, an E-4? That's the same Gotcher? Is this the same "press release" dated _June 3_ which states: start The "Report" _was filed_ (emphasis added) with by James R. Gotcher, General Legal Counsel, USS - LVA, with the Secretary of Defense at the Pentagon on June 8, the 38th anniversary of the attack on the USS Liberty. end According to the directive that governs the submission of the report the Department of Defense is required to conduct an investigation. If they do not, we have recourse. Which might well be to threaten to have the LVA leadership collectively hold its breath until the whole world accepts its version of an incident, now close to 38 years ago, and long ago settled. That might just do the trick ... g Has anybody ever presented a credible reason WHY Israel would deliberately attack an American ship? Or, if the intent was to sink it and leave no survivors, why they did neither? |
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"Merlin Dorfman" wrote in message ... In rec.aviation.military Mike wrote: Truthseeker wrote: Forwarded: On Monday, June 6, 2005, the attorney for the USS Liberty Veterans Association will file a report with the Department of Defense detailing the war crimes the Israelis committed during their June 8, 1967 attack on the USS Liberty. Is this the same LVA attorney who the LVA claim in its "press release" was "an Air Force intelligence officer in Vietnam in 1967" yet has stated he was in fact, an E-4? That's the same Gotcher? Is this the same "press release" dated _June 3_ which states: start The "Report" _was filed_ (emphasis added) with by James R. Gotcher, General Legal Counsel, USS - LVA, with the Secretary of Defense at the Pentagon on June 8, the 38th anniversary of the attack on the USS Liberty. end According to the directive that governs the submission of the report the Department of Defense is required to conduct an investigation. If they do not, we have recourse. Which might well be to threaten to have the LVA leadership collectively hold its breath until the whole world accepts its version of an incident, now close to 38 years ago, and long ago settled. That might just do the trick ... g Has anybody ever presented a credible reason WHY Israel would deliberately attack an American ship? Or, if the intent was to sink it and leave no survivors, why they did neither? Aas anyone supplied a credible reason why a "neutral" US warship was hanging around right in the middle of a hot warzone? |
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Merlin Dorfman wrote: Has anybody ever presented a credible reason WHY Israel would deliberately attack an American ship? Or, if the intent was to sink it and leave no survivors, why they did neither? The key part being c-r-e-d-i-b-l-e ... The idea that a nation would make a deliberate attack upon a warship of the only western power giving it *support* in a regional war against multiple enemies ..., well, let's just say it doesn't make any sense whatsoever and for those claiming otherwise, they best come to the "table" w/ solid and very credible evidence of that supposed "reason." MW |
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Merlin Dorfman wrote: Has anybody ever presented a credible reason WHY Israel would deliberately attack an American ship? Or, if the intent was to sink it and leave no survivors, why they did neither? The key part being c-r-e-d-i-b-l-e ... The idea that a nation would make a deliberate attack upon a warship of the only western power giving it *support* in a regional war against multiple enemies ..., well, let's just say it doesn't make any sense whatsoever and for those claiming otherwise, they best come to the "table" w/ solid and very credible evidence of that supposed "reason." MW |
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On 7 Jun 2005 14:15:59 -0700, "Mike" wrote:
Merlin Dorfman wrote: Has anybody ever presented a credible reason WHY Israel would deliberately attack an American ship? Or, if the intent was to sink it and leave no survivors, why they did neither? The key part being c-r-e-d-i-b-l-e ... The idea that a nation would make a deliberate attack upon a warship of the only western power giving it *support* in a regional war against multiple enemies ..., well, let's just say it doesn't make any sense whatsoever and for those claiming otherwise, they best come to the "table" w/ solid and very credible evidence of that supposed "reason." Isn't this the same nation that employed Johathon Pollard? Does that give us a clue? Or not? LIBERTY was intell ship gathering intel. Somebody on the Israeli side didn't like that. So they did something about it. You don't have to sink it and kill the crew to stop it. As an ASW type in S2s and P3s I have spent a LOT of time at 100-200 feet rigging ships. It's not hard to do and there was a specific proceedure taught in the S2 RAG. It's easier to rig a ship in a helo, harder in "fast mover." The idea that the Israeli pilots made a mistake in ID is not credible. The ship was marked in the standard fashion, including the name on the stern. The ship was surveyeled by a helo minutes before the attack began. Even if you can "write off" an intitial "error" to Israeli Army pilots as being blind, illiterate, and stupid the Israeli Navy took a hand in the operation. They are professional naval officers. They have binoculars. They have proper recognition manuals. What's their excuse? I don't claim any deep insights, here, only an operators view of SSSC. If the attack was accidental then the Israeli government really "screwed the pooch" and only the cowardice of the Johnson Administration saved them. If it was intentional, either as an act of state or of some rogue faction the cowardice of the Johnson Adminstration saved them. Bill Kambic Veteran: VS-27, VS-30, VS-73, VP-93 |
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Roger Conroy wrote:
"Merlin Dorfman" wrote in message Has anybody ever presented a credible reason WHY Israel would deliberately attack an American ship? Or, if the intent was to sink it and leave no survivors, why they did neither? Aas anyone supplied a credible reason why a "neutral" US warship was hang= ing around right in the middle of a hot warzone? Two suggestions on that sco First: In the 2004 FRUS Vol. XIX is a doc., #224. Available he http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/jo.../xix/28059.htm which states: start =EF=BB=BF224. Memorandum From Peter Jessup of the National Security Council Staff to the President's Special Assistant (Rostow)/1/ Washington, June 8, 1967. /1/Source: Johnson Library, National Security File, NSC Special Committee Files, Liberty. Top Secret. Also sent to Bundy and Bromley Smith. SUBJECT Why the USS Liberty Was Where It Was Attachment 1 shows the JRC forecast for June with the approved mission of the USS Liberty./2/ /2/Not attached. This was changed by a routine submission on 2 June. These are normally noted by Jessup for the White House, McAfee for State, and Chapin for CIA. Being proposed by DOD, it is assumed this had full Pentagon approval, in this case Vance. Routine changes without specific indications as to number of nautical miles off shore are merely noted and entered in the book. It is assumed that such a ship will operate under the discretion of COMSIXTH FLEET and USCINCEUR. It would seem to have been unnecessary at the time to submit this particular track change to the principals at the date submitted. Let me make myself clear. There is no doubt in my mind that JRC is in the clear, having submitted this change in plans in good faith and on a timely basis. Whether the actual nautical distance of the USS Liberty from the UAR coast on 8 June was unwise in view of the hostilities or whether this should be gauged as an accident of war is for others to judge. [Omitted here is a paragraph unrelated to the Liberty.] PJ end And second, which goes into the details (such as they are) which supports the above statement is available he http://www.nsa.gov/liberty/index.cfm Pull down the PDF file of the 1981 NSA report on the incident and read thru it; especially chapters 2 & 3. Now, as to why the ship continued on to its assigned operating area after 5 June -- when the ship was still in the central Med -- as the southeastern corner of the Med became a "hot war zone" is an interesting study in what's known as command-control-communications [failure thereof in this case, w/ tragic results.] MW |
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wrote:
On 7 Jun 2005 14:15:59 -0700, "Mike" wrote: Merlin Dorfman wrote: Has anybody ever presented a credible reason WHY Israel would deliberately attack an American ship? Or, if the intent was to sink it and leave no survivors, why they did neither? The key part being c-r-e-d-i-b-l-e ... The idea that a nation would make a deliberate attack upon a warship of the only western power giving it *support* in a regional war against multiple enemies ..., well, let's just say it doesn't make any sense whatsoever and for those claiming otherwise, they best come to the "table" w/ solid and very credible evidence of that supposed "reason." Isn't this the same nation that employed Johathon Pollard? Does that give us a clue? Or not? Or not. As it's apples (a nation fighting a war and the actions of its military in that war) and oranges (a nation dealing w/ the collection of intelligence which it believes can be useful). Besides, from what little I've read on Pollard's actions, I understand he first went to the Israelis, and that was how many years after the SDW? ... LIBERTY was intell ship gathering intel. Somebody on the Israeli side didn't like that. "Somebody"? The issue, again, is "credible" It needs to be credible. And as one retired Israeli gov't official has stated: start This vessel had entered the fighting area to keep Washington in touch with the course of the war. In view of the global responsibilities of the United States, this was a legitimate purpose, but it seemed inevitable that those who took risks would sometimes incur tragic sacrifice. end FWIW, that's from the former then-Foreign Minister, Abba Eban. So once again, "somebody"? Who the heck is this "somebody"? So they did something about it. You don't have to sink it and kill the crew to stop it. Oh, so you leave survivors which can later tell tales of what happened to them? You send out MTBs which are marked and flying the Israeli flag, and you put IAF helos overhead w/ the Star of David clearly seen? How is this credible? I'll ignore here the bogus claim of the jets being "unmarked." As an ASW type in S2s and P3s I have spent a LOT of time at 100-200 feet rigging ships. It's not hard to do and there was a specific proceedure taught in the S2 RAG. It's easier to rig a ship in a helo, harder in "fast mover." Does this mean "identifying" ships from the air? If so, then it addresses what was your training, not what IAF jet jocks were trained for, and had experience with -- or more importantly, not trained for, and no experience with. But as one retired USN type who spent time going "slow and low" has stated: start In reconstruction of the attack, the Liberty crew makes much of flying the American flag, as if it would somehow protect them in harm's way (see Ennes, p. 152). Little does the crew appreciate the difficulty of identifying a ship from an aircraft merely on the basis of a flag or even a hull number (GTR 5 displayed by the Liberty). Based on my experience of flying many "low and slow" reconnaissance flights over ships in the Med and Atlantic with VQ2, unless the flights are almost overhead, target identification is virtually impossible. High-powered binoculars are not much good in a bouncing low-level aircraft. end This from Nowicki in his material he had sent to author Bamford. The complete material from Nowicki is available here however: http://libertyincident.com/nowicki.htm The idea that the Israeli pilots made a mistake in ID is not credible. The jet jocks, w/o specific maritime recognition training? Or if this is in reference to helo pilots, then never mind, as the following part addresses that. The ship was marked in the standard fashion, including the name on the stern. The ship was surveyeled by a helo minutes before the attack began. Okay, let's stop right here. That last is simply incorrect. It's not factual. No helo surveyed the Liberty "minutes before the attack began." IAF helos were overhead AFTER the torpedo attack -- which took place at approx. 1435 Bravo. The helos were overhead around 1500-1505 Bravo. This fact is well established and documented. I will assume you've confused Zulu w/ Bravo time zones for when the helos were overhead as recorded by the VQ-2 EC-121. The EC-121 recordings are Zulu. Add two hours to get Bravo and they match Liberty's logs, for example, as to when the helos were overhead. Even if you can "write off" an intitial "error" to Israeli Army pilots as being blind, illiterate, and stupid the Israeli Navy took a hand in the operation. That they did. They are professional naval officers. They have binoculars. They have proper recognition manuals. What's their excuse? That one, the ship was abaze and smoking heavy and as they started to signal this ship -- the ship not only signaled back the same signal, but two, she opened fire on them. The term "professional naval officers" has to be understood in the context of what exactly was their training and what did they not only encounter, but what was their perception (rightly or wrongly) on this, the fourth day of a war -- a ship that was already assumed to be enemy. As to "proper recognition manuals" -- the Israeli Navy was concerned about the Arab Navies, not the US Navy. The Israeli Navy did not sail the seven seas for example. Their sea-going manuals (at least for those operating MTBS) dealt w/ the Arabs. Cristol covers this aspect in some details. Believe the Israelis or not, it's what his research uncovered -- as it dealt with how the Israeli Navy of 1967 operated. And here's what Liberty herself reported as to her condition when the MTBs came up on her: start O 192026Z JUN 67 FM CINCUSNAVEUR TO SECNAV ..=2E. LIBERTY INCIDENT (U) 1=2E FOLLOWING RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS POSED BY SECNAV: A. WAS SMOKE FROM FIRES ABOARD LIBERTY FOLLOWING AIR ATTACK HEAVY ENOUGH TO PRECLUDE IDENTIFICATION? YES, PARTICULARLY BY TORPEDO BOATS APPROACHING FROM STARBOARD QUARTER. SURFACE WINDS WERE NEGLIGIBLE SO RELATIVE WIND DUE PRIMARILY TO LIBERTY'S SOA. SMOKE FROM BURNING MOTOR WHALE- BOAT (STARBOARD WAIST) AND STACK (ABAFT ISLAND STRUCTURE) MUST HAVE PROVIDED EFFECTIVE SCREENING OF HOLIDAY COLORS FLYING FROM PORT HALYARD. ..=2E. C=2E DID LIBERTY ATTEMPT TO ANSWER SIGNALS FROM PATROL BOATS PRIOR TO ATTACK? YES. PATROL BOAT SIGNALS WERE PARTIALLY OBLITERATED BY FLAMES AND SMOKE FROM BURNING MOTOR WHALEBOAT ABAFT STARBOARD WIND OF BRIDGE. PATROL BOAT SIGNALS COULD NOT BE UNDERSTOOD BY LIBERTY WHO ATTEMPTED ESTABLISH COMMUNICATIONS BY ALDIS LAMP. OTHER SIGNAL LIGHTS HAD BEEN SHOT AWAY. ..=2E. end I don't claim any deep insights, here, only an operators view of SSSC. Which is fine, for the USN. If the attack was accidental then the Israeli government really "screwed the pooch" and only the cowardice of the Johnson Administration saved them. From what? If it was intentional, either as an act of state or of some rogue faction the cowardice of the Johnson Adminstration saved them. Well, as the Johnson adimistration determined: start =EF=BB=BFJohnson ordered a thorough investigation of the facts surrounding the attack. After extensive investigations, the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency concluded that there was =E2=80=9Clittle doubt=E2=80=9D that the attacking Israeli units =E2=80=9Cfa= iled to identify the Liberty as a US ship before or during the attack=E2=80=9D and that they had mistakenly identified the ship as Egyptian. Subsequently, the Central Intelligence Agency repeated the conclusion that the Israeli attack was a mistake although it was =E2=80=9Cboth incongruous and indicative of gross negligence.=E2=80=9D Clark Clifford also examined the evidence at Walt Rostow=E2=80=99s request and concluded that there was no evidence that the attack was intentional. end This from the DOS FRUS Vol. XIX Summary document. As we all know, it's not an accepted view by some; thanks mostly to the USG keeping so much of the material classified for too many years, and the availability of the LVA to generate stories which some accept at face value and never double-check against actual documentation.=20 MW |
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On 7 Jun 2005 16:06:46 -0700, "Mike" wrote:
Isn't this the same nation that employed Johathon Pollard? Does that give us a clue? Or not? Or not. As it's apples (a nation fighting a war and the actions of its military in that war) and oranges (a nation dealing w/ the collection of intelligence which it believes can be useful). Besides, from what little I've read on Pollard's actions, I understand he first went to the Israelis, and that was how many years after the SDW? ... You're correct. But it pokes a rather large hole in the "they would never do such a thing to their only friend" theory. LIBERTY was intell ship gathering intel. Somebody on the Israeli side didn't like that. "Somebody"? The issue, again, is "credible" It needs to be credible. And as one retired Israeli gov't official has stated: Well, we know who did the attacking. We know the "somebody." We just don't know the motivation. Or its lack. start This vessel had entered the fighting area to keep Washington in touch with the course of the war. In view of the global responsibilities of the United States, this was a legitimate purpose, but it seemed inevitable that those who took risks would sometimes incur tragic sacrifice. end FWIW, that's from the former then-Foreign Minister, Abba Eban. So once again, "somebody"? Who the heck is this "somebody"? The guys who did the shooting. We don't know the "why" of the orders, or its lack. So they did something about it. You don't have to sink it and kill the crew to stop it. Oh, so you leave survivors which can later tell tales of what happened to them? You send out MTBs which are marked and flying the Israeli flag, and you put IAF helos overhead w/ the Star of David clearly seen? How is this credible? I dunno. The evidence is there and it's ambiguous. I'll ignore here the bogus claim of the jets being "unmarked." Either you are as blind, and maybe as dumb, as those IA pukes or you like to blow sunshine up people's kilts. I made NO comment about any markings on aircraft, or their lack. As an ASW type in S2s and P3s I have spent a LOT of time at 100-200 feet rigging ships. It's not hard to do and there was a specific proceedure taught in the S2 RAG. It's easier to rig a ship in a helo, harder in "fast mover." Does this mean "identifying" ships from the air? Well, let's see. This a (at least in part) a group for the discussion of naval aircraft and their uses. So I would guess it's fair to make that presumption. If so, then it addresses what was your training, not what IAF jet jocks were trained for, and had experience with -- or more importantly, not trained for, and no experience with. How about the helo guys who could (and did) pass close aboard a properly maked ship at low altitude in daylight? But as one retired USN type who spent time going "slow and low" has stated: start In reconstruction of the attack, the Liberty crew makes much of flying the American flag, as if it would somehow protect them in harm's way (see Ennes, p. 152). Little does the crew appreciate the difficulty of identifying a ship from an aircraft merely on the basis of a flag or even a hull number (GTR 5 displayed by the Liberty). Based on my experience of flying many "low and slow" reconnaissance flights over ships in the Med and Atlantic with VQ2, unless the flights are almost overhead, target identification is virtually impossible. High-powered binoculars are not much good in a bouncing low-level aircraft. end The son of bitch who wrote this is an idiot. Or incompetant. Or he's following orders. A JG out fo the RAG can do it. I did it. I taught it. I'm not the "ace of the base." As far as the "jet" thing is concerned, I was stationed at Cecil for a while and made some friends in the A-7 RAG. They told me that there was a portion of the syllabus devoted to ID of ships and SSSC. I don't know how much there was. I don't know much about their proceedures. Maybe we've go an A-7 type who could "fill in some blanks." This from Nowicki in his material he had sent to author Bamford. The complete material from Nowicki is available here however: http://libertyincident.com/nowicki.htm The idea that the Israeli pilots made a mistake in ID is not credible. The jet jocks, w/o specific maritime recognition training? You again ignore the helos. Or if this is in reference to helo pilots, then never mind, as the following part addresses that. Ta-DA!!!!!!!!!! The ship was marked in the standard fashion, including the name on the stern. The ship was surveyeled by a helo minutes before the attack began. Okay, let's stop right here. That last is simply incorrect. It's not factual. No helo surveyed the Liberty "minutes before the attack began." The crew reported otherwise. IAF helos were overhead AFTER the torpedo attack -- which took place at approx. 1435 Bravo. The helos were overhead around 1500-1505 Bravo. This fact is well established and documented. I will assume you've confused Zulu w/ Bravo time zones for when the helos were overhead as recorded by the VQ-2 EC-121. The EC-121 recordings are Zulu. Add two hours to get Bravo and they match Liberty's logs, for example, as to when the helos were overhead. Even if you can "write off" an intitial "error" to Israeli Army pilots as being blind, illiterate, and stupid the Israeli Navy took a hand in the operation. That they did. They are professional naval officers. They have binoculars. They have proper recognition manuals. What's their excuse? That one, the ship was abaze and smoking heavy and as they started to signal this ship -- the ship not only signaled back the same signal, but two, she opened fire on them. The term "professional naval officers" has to be understood in the context of what exactly was their training and what did they not only encounter, but what was their perception (rightly or wrongly) on this, the fourth day of a war -- a ship that was already assumed to be enemy. As to "proper recognition manuals" -- the Israeli Navy was concerned about the Arab Navies, not the US Navy. The Israeli Navy did not sail the seven seas for example. Their sea-going manuals (at least for those operating MTBS) dealt w/ the Arabs. In other words at best they ****ed up, at worst they were a conscious part of the attack. Cristol covers this aspect in some details. Believe the Israelis or not, it's what his research uncovered -- as it dealt with how the Israeli Navy of 1967 operated. And here's what Liberty herself reported as to her condition when the MTBs came up on her: start O 192026Z JUN 67 FM CINCUSNAVEUR TO SECNAV ... LIBERTY INCIDENT (U) 1. FOLLOWING RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS POSED BY SECNAV: A. WAS SMOKE FROM FIRES ABOARD LIBERTY FOLLOWING AIR ATTACK HEAVY ENOUGH TO PRECLUDE IDENTIFICATION? YES, PARTICULARLY BY TORPEDO BOATS APPROACHING FROM STARBOARD QUARTER. SURFACE WINDS WERE NEGLIGIBLE SO RELATIVE WIND DUE PRIMARILY TO LIBERTY'S SOA. SMOKE FROM BURNING MOTOR WHALE- BOAT (STARBOARD WAIST) AND STACK (ABAFT ISLAND STRUCTURE) MUST HAVE PROVIDED EFFECTIVE SCREENING OF HOLIDAY COLORS FLYING FROM PORT HALYARD. ... C. DID LIBERTY ATTEMPT TO ANSWER SIGNALS FROM PATROL BOATS PRIOR TO ATTACK? YES. PATROL BOAT SIGNALS WERE PARTIALLY OBLITERATED BY FLAMES AND SMOKE FROM BURNING MOTOR WHALEBOAT ABAFT STARBOARD WIND OF BRIDGE. PATROL BOAT SIGNALS COULD NOT BE UNDERSTOOD BY LIBERTY WHO ATTEMPTED ESTABLISH COMMUNICATIONS BY ALDIS LAMP. OTHER SIGNAL LIGHTS HAD BEEN SHOT AWAY. ... end I don't claim any deep insights, here, only an operators view of SSSC. Which is fine, for the USN. I didn't know that fact was as a national commodity. Besides you want me to accept that the kind of aviator who could pull off an Entebbe or an attack deep into Iraq was unable to provide even a poor quality ID of properly marked ship. Sorry, boss, but it just don't wash. If the attack was accidental then the Israeli government really "screwed the pooch" and only the cowardice of the Johnson Administration saved them. From what? If it was intentional, either as an act of state or of some rogue faction the cowardice of the Johnson Adminstration saved them. Well, as the Johnson adimistration determined: start ?Johnson ordered a thorough investigation of the facts surrounding the attack. After extensive investigations, the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency concluded that there was “little doubt” that the attacking Israeli units “failed to identify the Liberty as a US ship before or during the attack” and that they had mistakenly identified the ship as Egyptian. Subsequently, the Central Intelligence Agency repeated the conclusion that the Israeli attack was a mistake although it was “both incongruous and indicative of gross negligence.” Clark Clifford also examined the evidence at Walt Rostow’s request and concluded that there was no evidence that the attack was intentional. end This from the DOS FRUS Vol. XIX Summary document. As we all know, it's not an accepted view by some; thanks mostly to the USG keeping so much of the material classified for too many years, and the availability of the LVA to generate stories which some accept at face value and never double-check against actual documentation. Again, best case scenario is for the Israeli Govt. is that their forces make a truly stupid blunder. The worst case is that they engaged in a hostile act against a ship on the high seas. In either event the Israeli Govt. has the duty to come clean, and they never have. IMO politics has driven each and every investigation (including those trying to hang an albatross around the Israeli neck). But they could put the issue to bed, if they chose to do so. They have not. Let them reap what they have sown. Bill Kambic |
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wrote:
On 7 Jun 2005 16:06:46 -0700, "Mike" wrote: Isn't this the same nation that employed Johathon Pollard? Does that give us a clue? Or not? Or not. As it's apples (a nation fighting a war and the actions of its military in that war) and oranges (a nation dealing w/ the collection of intelligence which it believes can be useful). Besides, from what little I've read on Pollard's actions, I understand he first went to the Israelis, and that was how many years after the SDW? ... You're correct. But it pokes a rather large hole in the "they would never do such a thing to their only friend" theory. Which is a term that indeed wears thin. However, as mentioned by another, what would have possibility have been the reason(s) for such an attack, especially on 8 June 1967, if it=E2=80=99s going to be claimed that it was done w/ the foreknowledge that the ship was US, especially known to be the Liberty -- and then fail to carry out the deed. All theses years, and nothing credible and certainly nothing directly from Israel, challenges what the Israelis have been saying since the late afternoon of 8 June 1967. LIBERTY was intell ship gathering intel. Somebody on the Israeli side didn't like that. "Somebody"? The issue, again, is "credible" It needs to be credible. And as one retired Israeli gov't official has stated: Well, we know who did the attacking. We know the "somebody." We just don't know the motivation. Or its lack. Depends on what one uses as sources on that score. Many a claim, but never a =E2=80=9Csmoking gun=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 even after all these years. start This vessel had entered the fighting area to keep Washington in touch with the course of the war. In view of the global responsibilities of the United States, this was a legitimate purpose, but it seemed inevitable that those who took risks would sometimes incur tragic sacrifice. end FWIW, that's from the former then-Foreign Minister, Abba Eban. So once again, "somebody"? Who the heck is this "somebody"? The guys who did the shooting. We don't know the "why" of the orders, or its lack. Sure we do; but it=E2=80=99s only the Israelis which can provide them. No former Liberty crrewmember is in a position to directly supply such info for example. So they did something about it. You don't have to sink it and kill the crew to stop it. Oh, so you leave survivors which can later tell tales of what happened to them? You send out MTBs which are marked and flying the Israeli flag, and you put IAF helos overhead w/ the Star of David clearly seen? How is this credible? I dunno. The evidence is there and it's ambiguous. How can marked helos and MTBs be =E2=80=9Cambiguous=E2=80=9D given the orig= inal thought above? I'll ignore here the bogus claim of the jets being "unmarked." Either you are as blind, and maybe as dumb, as those IA pukes or you like to blow sunshine up people's kilts. I made NO comment about any markings on aircraft, or their lack. Oh lighten up; the comment was made simply because the LVA position is that what was originally reported by the Liberty as =E2=80=9Cunidentified jets=E2=80=9D has been changed to =E2=80=9Cwe were attacked by unmarked jet= s=E2=80=9D while ignoring the reported markings of the helos and MTBs Didn=E2=80=99t want to go down that path, since you hadn=E2=80=99t brought it up. Sorry y= ou took it that way. As an ASW type in S2s and P3s I have spent a LOT of time at 100-200 feet rigging ships. It's not hard to do and there was a specific proceedure taught in the S2 RAG. It's easier to rig a ship in a helo, harder in "fast mover." Does this mean "identifying" ships from the air? Well, let's see. This a (at least in part) a group for the discussion of naval aircraft and their uses. So I would guess it's fair to make that presumption. Well since not all posters how all the various terms which get used, it was reasonable to ask. If so, then it addresses what was your training, not what IAF jet jocks were trained for, and had experience with -- or more importantly, not trained for, and no experience with. How about the helo guys who could (and did) pass close aboard a properly maked ship at low altitude in daylight? What about them? g They showed up afterwards as previously stated. But as one retired USN type who spent time going "slow and low" has stated: start In reconstruction of the attack, the Liberty crew makes much of flying the American flag, as if it would somehow protect them in harm's way (see Ennes, p. 152). Little does the crew appreciate the difficulty of identifying a ship from an aircraft merely on the basis of a flag or even a hull number (GTR 5 displayed by the Liberty). Based on my experience of flying many "low and slow" reconnaissance flights over ships in the Med and Atlantic with VQ2, unless the flights are almost overhead, target identification is virtually impossible. High-powered binoculars are not much good in a bouncing low-level aircraft. end The son of bitch who wrote this is an idiot. Or incompetant. Or he's following orders. A JG out fo the RAG can do it. I did it. I taught it. I'm not the "ace of the base." You=E2=80=99re claiming such for someone trained to do it. It apparently doesn=E2=80=99t take into account the lack of such training. As far as the "jet" thing is concerned, I was stationed at Cecil for a while and made some friends in the A-7 RAG. They told me that there was a portion of the syllabus devoted to ID of ships and SSSC. I don't know how much there was. I don't know much about their proceedures. Maybe we've go an A-7 type who could "fill in some blanks." Anyone is welcome to =E2=80=9Cfill in the blanks=E2=80=9D where is concerns= the amount of time that IAF jet pilots spent devoted to IDing ships and SSSC. Applying one=E2=80=99s own experience as a naval aviator doesn=E2=80= =99t necessarily hold for all other air forces. This from Nowicki in his material he had sent to author Bamford. The complete material from Nowicki is available here however: http://libertyincident.com/nowicki.htm The idea that the Israeli pilots made a mistake in ID is not credible. The jet jocks, w/o specific maritime recognition training? You again ignore the helos. Or if this is in reference to helo pilots, then never mind, as the following part addresses that. Ta-DA!!!!!!!!!! The ship was marked in the standard fashion, including the name on the stern. The ship was surveyeled by a helo minutes before the attack began. Okay, let's stop right here. That last is simply incorrect. It's not factual. No helo surveyed the Liberty "minutes before the attack began." The crew reported otherwise. No, they did not report such. No reports/messages of helos observing the ship prior to the attack, and certainly no sworn testimony of such. It=E2=80=99s possible you=E2=80=99re thinking of the crew observing aircraf= t in the AM, but certainly nothing has been reported that supports your comment of =E2=80=9Cthe ship was surveyed by a helo minutes before the attack began.=E2=80=9D If you believe it was a helo =E2=80=9Cminutes before the attack=E2=80=9D, c= an you recall the specific source? IAF helos were overhead AFTER the torpedo attack -- which took place at approx. 1435 Bravo. The helos were overhead around 1500-1505 Bravo. This fact is well established and documented. I will assume you've confused Zulu w/ Bravo time zones for when the helos were overhead as recorded by the VQ-2 EC-121. The EC-121 recordings are Zulu. Add two hours to get Bravo and they match Liberty's logs, for example, as to when the helos were overhead. Even if you can "write off" an intitial "error" to Israeli Army pilots as being blind, illiterate, and stupid the Israeli Navy took a hand in the operation. That they did. They are professional naval officers. They have binoculars. They have proper recognition manuals. What's their excuse? That one, the ship was abaze and smoking heavy and as they started to signal this ship -- the ship not only signaled back the same signal, but two, she opened fire on them. The term "professional naval officers" has to be understood in the context of what exactly was their training and what did they not only encounter, but what was their perception (rightly or wrongly) on this, the fourth day of a war -- a ship that was already assumed to be enemy. As to "proper recognition manuals" -- the Israeli Navy was concerned about the Arab Navies, not the US Navy. The Israeli Navy did not sail the seven seas for example. Their sea-going manuals (at least for those operating MTBS) dealt w/ the Arabs. In other words at best they ****ed up, at worst they were a conscious part of the attack. Well yeah; but if the latter, then once again if it was a =E2=80=9Cconscious part of the attack=E2=80=9D there=E2=80=99s the failure to complete the tas= k, and since it=E2=80=99s crewmember testimony that the ship fired on the approaching MTBs (understandably so) ... =E2=80=9CAs far as the torpedo boats are concerned, I am sure that they felt that they were under fire from USS LIBERTY. At this time, they opened fire with their gun mounts and in a matter of seconds, one torpedo was noted crossing astern of the ship at about 25 yards.=E2=80=9D from McGonagle=E2=80=99s sworn testimony. Cristol covers this aspect in some details. Believe the Israelis or not, it's what his research uncovered -- as it dealt with how the Israeli Navy of 1967 operated. And here's what Liberty herself reported as to her condition when the MTBs came up on her: start O 192026Z JUN 67 FM CINCUSNAVEUR TO SECNAV ... LIBERTY INCIDENT (U) 1. FOLLOWING RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS POSED BY SECNAV: A. WAS SMOKE FROM FIRES ABOARD LIBERTY FOLLOWING AIR ATTACK HEAVY ENOUGH TO PRECLUDE IDENTIFICATION? YES, PARTICULARLY BY TORPEDO BOATS APPROACHING FROM STARBOARD QUARTER. SURFACE WINDS WERE NEGLIGIBLE SO RELATIVE WIND DUE PRIMARILY TO LIBERTY'S SOA. SMOKE FROM BURNING MOTOR WHALE- BOAT (STARBOARD WAIST) AND STACK (ABAFT ISLAND STRUCTURE) MUST HAVE PROVIDED EFFECTIVE SCREENING OF HOLIDAY COLORS FLYING FROM PORT HALYARD. ... C. DID LIBERTY ATTEMPT TO ANSWER SIGNALS FROM PATROL BOATS PRIOR TO ATTACK? YES. PATROL BOAT SIGNALS WERE PARTIALLY OBLITERATED BY FLAMES AND SMOKE FROM BURNING MOTOR WHALEBOAT ABAFT STARBOARD WIND OF BRIDGE. PATROL BOAT SIGNALS COULD NOT BE UNDERSTOOD BY LIBERTY WHO ATTEMPTED ESTABLISH COMMUNICATIONS BY ALDIS LAMP. OTHER SIGNAL LIGHTS HAD BEEN SHOT AWAY. ... end I don't claim any deep insights, here, only an operators view of SSSC. Which is fine, for the USN. I didn't know that fact was as a national commodity. Well, OK then: =E2=80=9CWhich is fine, for an air force trained in maritime operations =E2=80=93 such as the USN or Royal Navy.=E2=80=9D Besides you want me to accept that the kind of aviator who could pull off an Entebbe The IAF at Entebbe in 1976 were basically =E2=80=9Cbus drivers=E2=80=9D =E2= =80=93 driving C-130s which actually went into the Entebbe airport and the 707 which operated as an airborne command-relay, over Kenya (IIRC.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe One interesting quote: =E2=80=9CAfter days of collecting intelligence and careful planning ...=E2=80=9D or an attack deep into Iraq was unable to provide even a poor quality ID of properly marked ship. Once again; a surgical-type operation w/ long lead-time for planning. It wasn=E2=80=99t the fourth day of a major regional conflict w/ fighting on three fronts. BTW, Entebbe was 1976, and the Iraqi strike 1981. Turn back the clock instead to 2 NOV 1956; the IAF mistakenly bombs the HMS Crane, a frigate of an actual full-blown ally at the time of the Suez War. She=E2=80=99s attacked w/o warning. Perhaps the IAF just has a problem when it comes to maritime operations ..=2E. Sorry, boss, but it just don't wash. Perhaps w/ your experience you=E2=80=99re giving the IAF far too much credit when it comes to operations which weren=E2=80=99t its responsibility and for which it didn=E2=80=99t train. Back in 1967 at least, the IDF Navy had responsibility for all naval matters, even w/o all the proper tools to conduct such =E2=80=93 like airplanes flown and operated by their own guys. If the attack was accidental then the Israeli government really "screwed the pooch" and only the cowardice of the Johnson Administration saved them. From what? If it was intentional, either as an act of state or of some rogue faction the cowardice of the Johnson Adminstration saved them. Well, as the Johnson adimistration determined: start ?Johnson ordered a thorough investigation of the facts surrounding the attack. After extensive investigations, the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency concluded that there was =E2=80=9Clittle doubt=E2=80=9D that the attacking Israeli units =E2=80= =9Cfailed to identify the Liberty as a US ship before or during the attack=E2=80=9D a= nd that they had mistakenly identified the ship as Egyptian. Subsequently, the Central Intelligence Agency repeated the conclusion that the Israeli attack was a mistake although it was =E2=80=9Cboth incongruous a= nd indicative of gross negligence.=E2=80=9D Clark Clifford also examined the evidence at Walt Rostow=E2=80=99s request and concluded that there was no evidence that the attack was intentional. end This from the DOS FRUS Vol. XIX Summary document. As we all know, it's not an accepted view by some; thanks mostly to the USG keeping so much of the material classified for too many years, and the availability of the LVA to generate stories which some accept at face value and never double-check against actual documentation. Again, best case scenario is for the Israeli Govt. is that their forces make a truly stupid blunder. The worst case is that they engaged in a hostile act against a ship on the high seas. It was a hostile act =E2=80=93 they targeted a ship they believed to be enemy, based not on the of best evidence. In either event the Israeli Govt. has the duty to come clean, and they never have. Come clean? What=E2=80=99s this suppose to mean? The GOI has provide to t= he USG what took place from its side, and the issue was long ago closed. Come clean? IMO politics has driven each and every investigation (including those trying to hang an albatross around the Israeli neck). But they could put the issue to bed, if they chose to do so. They have not. Let them reap what they have sown. It doesn=E2=80=99t take much research to show that from the Israeli POV they=E2=80=99ve moved on; learned the operational lessons from the errors, and finally closed out the last remaining gov=E2=80=99t-to-gov=E2=80=99t is= sue back in Dec. 1980 -- agreement for the ship=E2=80=99s damage. Just how on earth do you feel the Israelis =E2=80=9Ccould put the issue to bed=E2=80=9D given the political climate that drives a fair number of folks on the very basic issue of the US-Israeli relationship and US ME policies. I=E2=80=99ll wage money that there=E2=80=99s not one damn thing = the Israelis could do which would change the minds of those individuals who believe it was a deliberate attack on a known US ship and accept w/o question anything the LVA (for example) states on the issue they wish to keep alive. MW |
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