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#11
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"robert arndt" wrote in message om... Suggestion noted and rejected. There are just too many references to Syria picking up some Su-27s from Russia in 2000 and likewise no mention of operational Su-25s for Iran, although in 2003 there are news sources that report Iran was aquiring additional Su-25 airframes. Robert, the editors of such publications like Jane's World Air Forces do not even have a direct contact to their own contributors in situ, so to have the possibility to check if their info is entirely up to date. Jane's World Air Forces Issue 15, just for example, cites the Angolan Air Force having nothing less but five squadrons of MiG-21 "right now", which was not the case even at the best times the FAPA-DAA saw, so in 1987 (not to talk about the fact that even such a prominent editor like Paul Jackson apparently has no infos about the Sudanese AF at all). But you seem to expect that all the other similar publications - which to a considerable degree actually copy-paste their infos from Jane's, or at least cross-check their informations with different Jane's publications - "to know better" if there are Su-27s in Syria or not? Come on, even the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies cites "Su-27 not confirmed" in their newest assessments on the topic of Middle Eastern military ballance, but you're going to explain us that you are "convinced" that there are Su-27s with the SyAAF on the basis of out-of-date reference publications, none of which had first-hand sources? Just because there are "so many of them"? Shouldn't at least the Israelis know it a little bit better than you, or Jane's or all the other of your tremendously authoritative sources? Haven't you read the example with "so many of them" sources citing a Soviet Mi-24 shot down an Iranian F-4 further above? Also, I was disturbed by Tom Cooper's comments about not trusting aviation reference books since he, himself, is the co-author of two on Iranian aircraft. A bit hypocritical Tom? You should have just said to properly make the distinction between aircraft reference books that are to be used as guides and serious authoritative books like Jane's to settle disputes. Tom Cooper makes all sorts of annoying comments and thinks he's an authority on all things pertaining to the Iranian AF. That's why he can't provide information of the number of Su-25s supposedly operated by Iran, their units, tailnumbers, bases, or any photographic proof of any flying. If my remarks on the topic of military and politics in the Middle East are annoying for you - that better. Besides, I appreciate you being so kind to rise so much dust about me: this is good for my ego, you know. But, to say I can't provide any information on the number of Su-25s in Iran is a way off: I said there are seven of them, and they are in service with the IRGCAF. I could also explain you about the unit that operates them (not "units") their serials, bases etc., no problem, but you wouldn't understand this as I'm sure you don't know anything about the OrBat of the Iranian air arms, so this would mean nothing to you. Besides, it costs quite some money to run this kind of research, and you wouldn't pay anything for this in exchange, so I'm not interested. Thus, here is my proposal, which I think is really fair and ballanced for both of us: you continue babbling about how wrong and annoying I am at every opportunity on the r.a.m. and everywhere else (thanks in advance!), and I'll continue researching and publishing - together with my co-workers, of course. Then, in exactly one year from now, we'll meet here again, make a summary of what was published where in the meantime, and see who was right and who wrong, OK? Tom Cooper Co-Author: Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988: http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php and, Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat: http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585 |
#12
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According to the Spring 2003 Edition of "Internation Air Power Review"
in an article concerning the Su-27/30 this is what is said about the Syrian Flankers: 1) Syria was delivered 4 in April 2002 2) Two months later the number delivered was 8 3) Ultimately, Syria aquired 14 4) The Su-27s (which are SKs) are operated from the air bases of Al Qusayr and Minahk. Sounds good enough for me. If you take into account the Russian deliveries of T-80 MBTs from 2000 on you will see that at least the first delivery of Flankers was included in that $2 billion package Syria paid for up front. So as far as I am concerned, Tom Cooper is in denial. Rob |
#13
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A typo on my last post, sorry.
1) SHOULD READ: 4 delivered by April 2000 Rob |
#14
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"robert arndt" wrote in message om... OK Robert, I told you I have a feeling you talk about something you don't have a clue about, and so here is - once again - the whole story, so that even children and those in the rearest rows can understand it. AFM, June 2000 issue, p.15 (this one was NOT mine): "Syria gets Flankers It has been reported by sources within Russia that the first shipment of Sukhoi Su-27 Flankers to Syria was due to be delivered to Damascus by the end of April (2000) Although Syria has been planning to procure new military equipment from Russia (Syria plans Russian Re-equipment, April 1999, p.11), no official confirmation of any contracts has so far emerged. However, the aircraft were apparently being prepared for shipment from the Gagarin Aviation Production Association factory in Komsomolsk-on-Amur during April. The Consequences of such a purchase could impact on the negotiations taking place between Israel and Syria concerning the settlement of the dispute over the Golan Heights. It will certainly strengthen Israeli demands for additional US military assistance, particularly the procurement of new and more advanced weapons systems." So, that article mentioned the PREPARATIONS of Su-27s to be sent to Syria. And then there came the following report of mine from AFM _July 2000_, the first to mention Su-27s in Syria: "Syria is believed to have received four Su-27 Flankers during May, with another four due imminently (Syria Gets Flankers, June, p.15). The Flankers have been delivered to the same squadron, however, at two locations - Minakh AB (home of the Air Force Academy) and the military side of Damascus International Airport, with two aircraft stationed at each location. The thinking behind the division is that if one of the airfields is attacked then aircraft from the other would survive. However, given the proximity of Minakh to the Turkish border and Damascus to Israel (both of which are linked by far-reaching defence agreements) it would seem that Syria is guarding against attacks from both countries. Three years ago Turkey came close to war with Syria due to their PKK support." Can you - or anybody else here - find any EARLIER report about SIGHTING or DELIVERIES of Flankers IN Syria - not their preparations for being sent there or anything else? (Oh, and would you at least once not be so ignorant as usually and answer this question of mine?) And, as you obviously haven't read my post in the other thread, although I have suggested you to do so, here it once again, the full explanation and the _end of the story_, my report published in AFM volume July 2003, p.18 "No Flankers in Syria Contrary to press reports in 2000, it is now known that the Syrian Arab Air Force (SyAAF) is not operating Su-27s (amending "Four Flankers in Syria, July 2000, p.16). However, this does not mean that the Su-27 has never been seen in Syria, as reported at the time. In 1999 and 2000, Moscow started intensive efforts to sell Su-27s to Damascus and there are indications that the Russians are still trying to do so. On no fewer than four occasions, Su-27s have been flown to Syria in order to be demonstrated to the SyAAF pilots and engineering officers, in order to familiarise them with the aircraft. One such event took place in autumn 1999, and another in April 2000, when two Su-27s drawn from Russian Air Force units were deployed to the SyAAF Academy at Minakh AB, and further two going directly to Damascus. On both occasions, the aircraft also carried "full" SyAAF markings, and a group of Syrian pilots was permitted to fly them, putting the aircraft through a series of intensive and prolonged tests. Quite why the Syrians did not in the end purchase the Su-27s remains unclear - one reason was almost certainly the lack of funding on the Syrian side. However, Syrian sources stress that this was not exactly the case, saying they were refusing Russian requests to pay debts for equipment supplied during the 1980s, variously reported to be between $2 and $5 billion. The Syrians were unwilling to pay for equipment which in their opinion was neither "top of the range" nor effective in combat against the Israeli. It seems that Moscow somehow accepted this decision and orders for certain other weapons, including AT-14 ATGMs, were accepted, with deliveries commencing in 2002. The Su-27 deal was not, however, to be finalised. Another problem seems to have been the fact that Rosobornexport was offering Syria only eight Su-27s and four Su-27UBs (at an unknown price) in April 2001; one month later another offer was made, for then Su-27S and two Su-27UBs. The Syrians, however, wanted many more Flankers. Citing a study prepared for the SyAAF, Damascus stressed that 42 Flankers would be the absolute minimum to be of any use to the Syrian Air Force. It remains unknown why the Russians refused to supply this many. When negotiations with Sukhoi fell through, the SyAAF went back to RSK MiG and ordered 22 MiG-29s (all second-hand/used airframes, but upgraded to an as-yet-unknown standard), together with 300 "upgraded air-to-air missiles" of unspecified type. At least 16 of these Fulcrums were delivered to Syria in 2001 and 2002, and are believed* to be operational with one of the three units flying the type. Interestingly, this deal was never announced by RSK MiG or made public." *Meanwhile it is _known_ that they are operational. The 826th FS still flies MiG-21bis, from al-Quasyr AB. The Israelis have closely monitored the arrival of different pieces of equipment in Syria during the last two years, especially because some of the stuff that was arriving there was forwarded to Iraq. This caused a whole series of severe incidents, none of which was reported in the press (in part becaue the editor of the AFM explained that, "there's not enough fighting" in them), you can find the report about these events he http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_278.shtml Note also that in the report published in July 2003 AFM I mentioned also the delivery of AT-14s to Syria. This happened in autumn last year (2002). The Syrians forwarded 12 launchers and at least 100 rounds to the Iraqis, and the Iraqis used these during the war with the USA, in March and April this year (together with some TOWs they captured in Kuwait in 1990, but also got via Syria in the last two years: the US Army has an official investigation running to the topic). And so, Rob, you can now expect that within the next two years every of your "authoritative" sources is going to take Su-27s out of the Syrian inventory. BTW, talking about the future years: what is with my proposal from the post above? Tom Cooper Co-Author: Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988: http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php and, Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat: http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585 |
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