Final Word on Syrian/Iranian A/C

Would you all stop bickering about the Syrian Flankers and Iranian
Frogfoots!

Picking up a copy of the 2002 edition of Jane's aircraft recognition
guide it clearly states that Iran DOES operate the Su-25 and Syria
DOES NOT operate any Su-27 Flankers.

Since Jane's is the world's authority on aircraft that should settle
the matter.

I also have the book Rob got his information from. It is a good book
for the price $20, but it is meant only as guide, not an authoritative
source of material. Every other volume comes out 2 years from the
previous one making the information contained at the time of printing
obsolete. The publication also includes aircraft deals that may or may
not be filled or just plain cancelled.

So, buy the guide for updated information on individual aircraft like
the MiG 1.44, Su-47, Eurofighter, Gripen, Rafale, etc... and leave the
inventory facts to Jane's.

That's my suggestion.

Also, I was disturbed by Tom Cooper's comments about not trusting
aviation reference books since he, himself, is the co-author of two on
Iranian aircraft. A bit hypocritical Tom? You should have just said to
properly make the distinction between aircraft reference books that
are to be used as guides and serious authoritative books like Jane's
to settle disputes.

We all have lots of aviation books but I would dare say 99% of them
are outdated or wrong. Such is the foolishness of trying to print
anything realted to aviation that is historically accurate,
technically flawless, or up to date.

Just my opinion,
BGX

According to Military Balance 2002-2003 four Su-27s were delivered
to Syria in 2000.

David Joston wrote:

Would you all stop bickering about the Syrian Flankers and Iranian
Frogfoots!

Picking up a copy of the 2002 edition of Jane's aircraft recognition
guide it clearly states that Iran DOES operate the Su-25 and Syria
DOES NOT operate any Su-27 Flankers.

Since Jane's is the world's authority on aircraft that should settle
the matter.

I also have the book Rob got his information from. It is a good book
for the price $20, but it is meant only as guide, not an authoritative
source of material. Every other volume comes out 2 years from the
previous one making the information contained at the time of printing
obsolete. The publication also includes aircraft deals that may or may
not be filled or just plain cancelled.

So, buy the guide for updated information on individual aircraft like
the MiG 1.44, Su-47, Eurofighter, Gripen, Rafale, etc... and leave the
inventory facts to Jane's.

That's my suggestion.

Also, I was disturbed by Tom Cooper's comments about not trusting
aviation reference books since he, himself, is the co-author of two on
Iranian aircraft. A bit hypocritical Tom? You should have just said to
properly make the distinction between aircraft reference books that
are to be used as guides and serious authoritative books like Jane's
to settle disputes.

We all have lots of aviation books but I would dare say 99% of them
are outdated or wrong. Such is the foolishness of trying to print
anything realted to aviation that is historically accurate,
technically flawless, or up to date.

Just my opinion,
BGX

David,

I do not consider any of Jane's publications as authoritative on the topic
of Iran: they are full of terrible mistakes, and most of their (and most of
those published elsewhere) articles and publications to the topic of Iran -
actually all of them - are completely wrong.

The fact that they wrote in 2001 that the Su-25 is in service is already a
very good confirmation for this: the plane is in service only since earlier
this year.

That they say the Su-27s is not operated by Syria was probably a mistake of
a sort.

Also, I was disturbed by Tom Cooper's comments about not trusting
aviation reference books since he, himself, is the co-author of two on
Iranian aircraft. A bit hypocritical Tom? You should have just said to
properly make the distinction between aircraft reference books that
are to be used as guides and serious authoritative books like Jane's
to settle disputes.

Well, that's actually exactly what I said (minus that about Jane's: as said
above, they're never correct when it comes to Iran). I guess that you should
have read the post in question more carefully, instead just the line that
informed you, "...that Tom Cooper is .now stating that they are all wrong
about Iran and Syria..."

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

(David Joston) wrote in message om...
Would you all stop bickering about the Syrian Flankers and Iranian
Frogfoots!

Picking up a copy of the 2002 edition of Jane's aircraft recognition
guide it clearly states that Iran DOES operate the Su-25 and Syria
DOES NOT operate any Su-27 Flankers.

Since Jane's is the world's authority on aircraft that should settle
the matter.

Are you kidding? Janes isn't infallible and that Aircraft Recognition
Guide is exactly what you claimed my reference was- a guide!!! It
doesn't even feature the MiG 1.42/MFI 1.44, Su-47 Firkin, KAI AT-50,
etc... So much for being up to date!

I also have the book Rob got his information from. It is a good book
for the price $20, but it is meant only as guide, not an authoritative
source of material. Every other volume comes out 2 years from the
previous one making the information contained at the time of printing
obsolete. The publication also includes aircraft deals that may or may
not be filled or just plain cancelled.

And you failed to mention that all aircraft included in deals are
marked with an asterik in the inventory section. In the individual
aircraft columns any significant purchases or licensed production is
noted.

So, buy the guide for updated information on individual aircraft like
the MiG 1.44, Su-47, Eurofighter, Gripen, Rafale, etc... and leave the
inventory facts to Jane's.

That's my suggestion.

Suggestion noted and rejected. There are just too many references to
Syria picking up some Su-27s from Russia in 2000 and likewise no
mention of operational Su-25s for Iran, although in 2003 there are
news sources that report Iran was aquiring additional Su-25 airframes.

Also, I was disturbed by Tom Cooper's comments about not trusting
aviation reference books since he, himself, is the co-author of two on
Iranian aircraft. A bit hypocritical Tom? You should have just said to
properly make the distinction between aircraft reference books that
are to be used as guides and serious authoritative books like Jane's
to settle disputes.

Tom Cooper makes all sorts of annoying comments and thinks he's an
authority on all things pertaining to the Iranian AF. That's why he
can't provide information of the number of Su-25s supposedly operated
by Iran, their units, tailnumbers, bases, or any photographic proof of
any flying.

We all have lots of aviation books but I would dare say 99% of them
are outdated or wrong. Such is the foolishness of trying to print
anything realted to aviation that is historically accurate,
technically flawless, or up to date.

I'll agree with you on this point. Anyone who keeps aviation reference
material is forced to update constantly. I merely tried to provide
basic information on the strengths of both the Syrian and Iranian AF
as compared to the Israeli AF. Even if there are some discrepancies
the picture remains the same with Israel far outclassing the other two
AFs in terms of aircraft, quality, units, and training.


Rob

Just my opinion,
BGX

"Tom Cooper" wrote in message ...
David,

I do not consider any of Jane's publications as authoritative on the topic
of Iran: they are full of terrible mistakes, and most of their (and most of
those published elsewhere) articles and publications to the topic of Iran -
actually all of them - are completely wrong.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

Well, I don't see a "Tom Cooper's All the World's Aircraft 2003/2004"
edition anywhere. I'd like to know what your credentials are to make
such assertations?

A co-author of two books on Iranian a/c doesn't mean **** compared to
Jane's excellent reputation as the world's authority on aircraft.

Until you can prove otherwise, your comments make you sound like the
Al Gore of RAM.

BGX

On 13 Oct 2003 10:04:48 -0700, David Joston wrote:

A co-author of two books on Iranian a/c doesn't mean **** compared to
Jane's excellent reputation as the world's authority on aircraft.

Do Jane's have an excellent reputation? My understanding is they
used to, but do they still?

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(My real email address would be if you added 275
to it and reversed the last two letters).

"David Joston" wrote in message
om...
"Tom Cooper" wrote in message
...
David,

I do not consider any of Jane's publications as authoritative on the
topic
of Iran: they are full of terrible mistakes, and most of their (and most
of
those published elsewhere) articles and publications to the topic of
Iran -
actually all of them - are completely wrong.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

Well, I don't see a "Tom Cooper's All the World's Aircraft 2003/2004"
edition anywhere. I'd like to know what your credentials are to make
such assertations?

Once Janes published the Copp kook troll e-bomb nonsense from ram, they lost
any credibility they may have ever had.

"phil hunt" wrote in message
. ..
On 13 Oct 2003 10:04:48 -0700, David Joston
wrote:

A co-author of two books on Iranian a/c doesn't mean **** compared to
Jane's excellent reputation as the world's authority on aircraft.

Do Jane's have an excellent reputation? My understanding is they
used to, but do they still?

I say Janes not knowing what EMP is puts them asleeep at the wheel for 40
years.

In message , phil hunt
writes
On 13 Oct 2003 10:04:48 -0700, David Joston wrote:

A co-author of two books on Iranian a/c doesn't mean **** compared to
Jane's excellent reputation as the world's authority on aircraft.

Do Jane's have an excellent reputation? My understanding is they
used to, but do they still?

They're okay but not to be taken as Gospel.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

"David Joston" wrote in message
om...
"Tom Cooper" wrote in message
...
David,

I do not consider any of Jane's publications as authoritative on the
topic
of Iran: they are full of terrible mistakes, and most of their (and most
of
those published elsewhere) articles and publications to the topic of
Iran -
actually all of them - are completely wrong.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

Well, I don't see a "Tom Cooper's All the World's Aircraft 2003/2004"
edition anywhere. I'd like to know what your credentials are to make
such assertations?

Isn't your post and this question actually self-explaining?

A co-author of two books on Iranian a/c doesn't mean **** compared to
Jane's excellent reputation as the world's authority on aircraft.

OK. Then there were Su-25s in Iranian service already in 2001. Can you,
based on your holly Jane's, mention even one serial or tell us which unit
operates them and where are they stationed?

Oh, and, BTW, and what are your credentials?

Until you can prove otherwise, your comments make you sound like the
Al Gore of RAM.

Well, you do sound like Woody Allen already now.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585