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#1
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Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?
OK so time to start a new thread.
I submit that the best winch I have ever driven, been launched by etc is the home built single drum monstrosity currently at Parys. Metrics used to come to this conclusion would be safety and cost / launch. It was built in the 1960s by Hans Lobach while he was flying at Underberg. When they upgraded to a more powerful double drum design the Parys bunch purchased it. It has a donor vehicle was a Ford Ranchero 1ton pickup - 352 CID Ford Windsor V8 (170Kw when new - somewhat less now) 3 speed transmission - launched in second with the kickdown disabled. Standard (rumoured to be 4.16:1) axle mounted inverted with a shortened propshaft. So - we have one machine that has been launching training two seaters for more than half a century now. No one has been killed launching with it in those 50 years. As far as I know the most serious injury has been a broken finger when someone pulled on the cable while the winch driver was removing a loop on the drum. Still has the same engine, same gearbox etc. Remarkable considering it averages around 50-60 launches a weekend. So it has somewhere between 100,000 and 150,000 launches behind it without major overhaul. I have launched in Bergfalkes, Blaniks, Std Cirrus and Kestrel 19 on it. Others have launched Grob 103 and other "heavies". Interestingly considering the arguments about more sophistication and instrumentation and all the rest of it the operating procedure is very simple. The rev counter and speedometer have long been disconnected - it was found far better for the winch driver to learn to read the catenary on the cable and adjust tension appropriately to the actual circumstances. Purchase / build cost is lost to the mists of time. Hans Lobach celebrated 60 years of gliding taking a launch on "his" winch a couple of years ago - but could not recall what it cost to build. Cost per launch is so low the club winch cost is $4 - and that is with the thing drinking 800ml of premium per launch. Newer engines would be a lot more efficient. Apart from the head gear (rollers and guillotine) there is little that wears out. 2.8mm class B spring steel single strand wire works great, We get about 1000 launches from a cable before it starts work hardening and breaking. That winch is probably the only reason such a small club can continue to operate economically. That said it is now in serious need of a little TLC - mainly cosmetic - to prevent people mistaking it for a heap of scrap metal at the end of the runway... The only problem is no-one wants to stop flying long enough to do the prettying up. So - who has a better winch? (on metrics of safety over life and cost / launch) If anyone wants to see pictures - The carburettor clogged up a jet on a nice day. Serious attention required. ;-) http://www.whisperingwings.org.za/ga...0&id=P1010008a A couple more pictures he http://www.whisperingwings.org.za/ga...album10&page=7 Happy winching. |
#2
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Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?
In message , Bruce
writes snip Others have launched Grob 103 and other "heavies". (All weights AFAIK) ASH 25 at MTOW? (750kg I think, same as the Nimbus 4D) K21 is 600kg, Grob 103 is 580kg - 676kg depending on the version, Duo is 700kg. Snip -- Surfer! Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net |
#3
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Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?
Surfer! wrote:
In message , Bruce writes snip Others have launched Grob 103 and other "heavies". (All weights AFAIK) ASH 25 at MTOW? (750kg I think, same as the Nimbus 4D) K21 is 600kg, Grob 103 is 580kg - 676kg depending on the version, Duo is 700kg. Snip Duo XLT is now 750 kg... And yes - that is why the Drakensberg guys built a new Chevy 454 winch with much more power. (For some reason this is the "small block" - I just wonder what it is compared to?) There were aparently loooong seconds on the uphill launch with the Grob twin astir that were too uncomfortable at Underberg. A short uphill runway at 5200MSL on a hot summer day is not a good place to have the winch ambling up to full speed... For our use the Ford has about enough for a safe, no wind launch with a L13 at max weight and density altitude in the 8-9000 feet range. |
#4
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Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?
No this thread is what we in the USA need to focus on - how to get
launched as cheaply as possible - as close to $0.00 as possible. Not the $40-60 launches. That stops me cold from flying so many times, even when my pockets are brimming with cash. Something seems wrong about that. We should establish a base where the winch launching is permanently available and have the FBOs offer other services there. My argument to the FBOs has been that they could make as much or more money offering a winch launch at $10, because there would be many more launches and more people flying not only because it would be cheaper, but also because it would be much more fun. Anyone who has winch launched knows it is much more fun than an areo tow. Look at the professional operations in Europe, they have large operations with winches and also offer areo tows, which also keep them busy because there are always reasons to do an areo tow. Unfortunately, my discussions on this topic always falls on deaf ears, so maybe they know something I don't, but I suspect it's a fear of changing to an new method (for them) and business model. My opinion is if the commercial operators just refuse, the clubs should do it themselves, as is mostly done in Europe. For that, a suitable site is needed, which is the stumbling block as much as the winch is - if not more so. In Northern California, one club uses federal land as their site, managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), to operate from. That would be the preferred way to go in many ways to site a glider operation that uses winch launches - not an existing airport as that will almost always be prohibited by the owners. Tom |
#5
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Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?
Bruce wrote:
Interesting winch history mostly snipped... Still has the same engine, same gearbox etc. Remarkable considering it averages around 50-60 launches a weekend. So it has somewhere between 100,000 and 150,000 launches behind it without major overhaul. Snip... Purchase / build cost is lost to the mists of time. Hans Lobach celebrated 60 years of gliding taking a launch on "his" winch a couple of years ago - but could not recall what it cost to build. Cost per launch is so low the club winch cost is $4 - and that is with the thing drinking 800ml of premium per launch. Newer engines would be a lot more efficient. Your club is lucky indeed to have this sort of paid-for, safely-functioning bit of hardware! Puts y'all in the happy position of being able to decide what sort of financial model you want to use (e.g. "cheap launches" at one end of the model spectrum, as contrasted to "capital improvement fund" at another end). Definitely more flexible (and recession-resistant) than "gotta pay off this beastie's mortgage" rigid pricing! Snip... That winch is probably the only reason such a small club can continue to operate economically. "Ayup...this in a nutshell is (to me, anyway) the crux of 'tension control' winching gaining acceptance. Assuming at least one 'cheapie-version/technology-demonstrator' tension-control winch can be brought to operational use somewhere in the world, then 'Father Time' will be the judge as to whether or not safety is statistically-enhanced in practice...while he'll also be keeping a keen eye on maintenance costs/issues. Meanwhile, the new technology - for better or worse - will be competing against existing technology, cost-wise. Seems to me there's no realistic way to remove practical economics from this particular playing field... Regards, Bob W. |
#6
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Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?
On Jul 14, 12:51*pm, tommytoyz wrote:
No this thread is what we in the USA need to focus on - how to get launched as cheaply as possible - as close to $0.00 as possible. Not the $40-60 launches. That stops me cold from flying so many times, even when my pockets are brimming with cash. Something seems wrong about that. We should establish a base where the winch launching is permanently available and have the FBOs offer other services there. My argument to the FBOs has been that they could make as much or more money offering a winch launch at $10, because there would be many more launches and more people flying not only because it would be cheaper, but also because it would be much more fun. Anyone who has winch launched knows it is much more fun than an areo tow. Look at the professional operations in Europe, they have large operations with winches and also offer areo tows, which also keep them busy because there are always reasons to do an areo tow. Unfortunately, my discussions on this topic always falls on deaf ears, so maybe they know something I don't, but I suspect it's a fear of changing to an new method (for them) and business model. My opinion is if the commercial operators just refuse, the clubs should do it themselves, as is mostly done in Europe. For that, a suitable site is needed, which is the stumbling block as much as the winch is - if not more so. In Northern California, one club uses federal land as their site, managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), to operate from. That would be the preferred way to go in many ways to site a glider operation that uses winch launches - not an existing airport as that will almost always be prohibited by the owners. Tom Don at Cross Country Soaring reports getting 2400ft launches at his operation off the local municipal airport. The synthetic performance ropes make this possible, even with runway lights. The Soaring Sooners are based at another small municipal airport and operate a winch there. Caprock Soaring operates a winch parallel to the main runway at Littlefield. Finger Lakes Soaring Club winches at Dansville Municipal Airport. Orange County Soaring Association winches from Hemet Airport. There are others. It is doable, but the setting is important also as more space is highly desirable. There been some movement on mobile winch liability coverage which may well open up several more venues. A good winch and a two-seater may see the return of the 'barn stormers';^) Frank Whiteley |
#7
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Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?
Orange County Soaring Association winches from
Hemet Airport. You might want to check which clubs really operate out of airports in the USA. Just because a club owns a winch, does not mean they winch from where they are normally based. The Orange County club for instance certainly does not winch out of the Hemet airport, they only winch out of 29 Palms on occasion. So I throw your stats all into doubt. I am not aware of any publicly owned airport in the USA that allows dual winch/regular traffic operations. Of course I could be ignorant and wrong. It would be a good exercise to factually check if there really are any and then see how they resolved the liability/ operational issues. Tom |
#8
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Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?
I stand corrected,
The Orange County Folk do operate via winch out of Hemet - congratulations to them. Tom |
#9
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Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?
At 18:51 14 July 2009, tommytoyz wrote:
No this thread is what we in the USA need to focus on - how to get launched as cheaply as possible - as close to $0.00 as possible. Not the $40-60 launches. That stops me cold from flying so many times, even when my pockets are brimming with cash. Something seems wrong about that. My opinion is if the commercial operators just refuse, the clubs should do it themselves, as is mostly done in Europe. For that, a suitable site is needed, which is the stumbling block as much as the winch is - if not more so. In Northern California, one club uses federal land as their site, managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), to operate from. That would be the preferred way to go in many ways to site a glider operation that uses winch launches - not an existing airport as that will almost always be prohibited by the owners. Tom The major difference between the UK and the USA is that with the exception of the Armed Services Gliding Clubs almost no gliding club operates from an established airport. In the case of my club, and many others, we own an Ex Mighty Eighth airfield. Many clubs use greenfield sites that they have developed themselves so winching for us is easy. We do allow powered aircraft to operate from our airfield with rules to ensure de-confliction. Any flattish field will do, at a flat site a run length of 3 times the proposed cable length is about right. On hill sites the cable length can be very much shorter. Find a co-operative farmer and trial it. Even better if you can find a field at the bottom or top of a hill which has a nice ridge facing the prevailing wind, normally avoided by normal airport planners, you can launch into lift for virtually nothing. If you get the right hill you can even bungey launch off it. |
#10
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Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?
On Jul 14, 7:30*pm, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 18:51 14 July 2009, tommytoyz wrote: No this thread is what we in the USA need to focus on - how to get launched as cheaply as possible - as close to $0.00 as possible. Not the $40-60 launches. That stops me cold from flying so many times, even when my pockets are brimming with cash. Something seems wrong about that. My opinion is if the commercial operators just refuse, the clubs should do it themselves, as is mostly done in Europe. For that, a suitable site is needed, which is the stumbling block as much as the winch is - if not more so. In Northern California, one club uses federal land as their site, managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), to operate from. That would be the preferred way to go in many ways to site a glider operation that uses winch launches - not an existing airport as that will almost always be prohibited by the owners. Tom The major difference between the UK and the USA is that with the exception of the Armed Services Gliding Clubs almost no gliding club operates from an established airport. In the case of my club, and many others, we own an Ex Mighty Eighth airfield. Many clubs use greenfield sites that they have developed themselves so winching for us is easy. We do allow powered aircraft to operate from our airfield with rules to ensure de-confliction. Any flattish field will do, at a flat site a run length of 3 times the proposed cable length is about right. On hill sites the cable length can be very much shorter. Find a co-operative farmer and trial it. Even better if you can find a field at the bottom or top of a hill which has a nice ridge facing the prevailing wind, normally avoided by normal airport planners, you can launch into lift for virtually nothing. If you get the right hill you can even bungey launch off it. That's exactly the approach taken at King Mountain Glider Park (long an HG venue). Develop the site. http://www.kingmountaingliderpark.com/ King Mountain Safari, Aug 17-22 Frank Whiteley |
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