Wingtips for PW-5

Originally Posted by

On Jun 9, 9:39*pm, RRK wrote:
You can't put lipstick on a pig...

Rich Fat Pig talking

HAHAHA...

No we debated it to death on here PW5's suck donkey balls.
Everyone knows that...

Winglets on donkey balls wont make those fly any faster either...

FLAME SUIT ON....

Where is lenny the lurker when you need him...
Lenny...?
Lenny.... ?

... Hehehhehe .. Mister ASW22 Pilot .. don't talk EVERYONE for me !!! ..
If anything I rather FLY "donkeyballs" then hold-them-sqize-them-and-run-around -- like some ASW pilots do ;-) ... hehehehe

Here in Midwest .. PW-5's (all of them ) are "out there high in blue" every time I stop at our strip .. when most of "expensive glass is packed in trailers "waiting for the better weather" ... hahaha ... see what flies ? .. donkey balls .. they DO !!!... hahaha :-)

KiloCharlie

Originally Posted by ContestID67[_2_]

Whether or not you can add wing extensions or winglets I cannot say -
but - I believe people on this thread are being unfair to the PW-5.
We have several in the club (private and club owned) and they are much
loved. They are a great stepping stone ship for new pilots to move
from trainers on their way to slick modern long wings. Inexpensive,
benign, a reasonable XC ship, very easy to rig, and, from what I can
see, strong. Don't be a snob.

I can agree with much of what you say but they ain't cheap in the US compared to here in NZ. My Club sold one for NZ$13.5k although it did need the rudder cables replacing. A private one in as new condition with c.100hrs, no trailer, was sold for NZ$19k

They are so easy to rig and derig. Don't mind going to retrieve them

Haven't flown one but maybe one day if I get bored with flying my Ventus a and Nimbus 3D

:-0 Colin

On Jun 9, 9:35*pm, RRK wrote:

Not to mention, that there is no less expensive, new glider build in
the last 20 years.

Debatable.

Thanks, Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24

On Jun 10, 6:47*am, kilocharlie kilocharlie.
wrote:

**** .. In a matter of fact, PW-5 is built in the "tradition" of other
polish glass gliders ( Jantar, Acro etc ...) ... strong and
over-engineered at best - LIKE TANK ... don't be fool by the light
"feeling"...

I've lifted the PW5 wing and felt its flex, and I've seen the wing
sandwich plies where one got broken open in a minor landing mishap. I
stand by my assertion that it is a lightly built glider.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a perfectly safe glider. I am
confident that it is well-engineered, and that it is every bit as
strong as it needs to be to react all of the flight loads within its
operational envelope.

What I think it doesn't have is margin for loads outside the envelope.
Things like ground handling loads, mishaps, minor accidents, and
things of that nature. Margin is what gives gliders robustness and the
ability to operate under harsh conditions and trying circumstances. I
definitely agree that the other Polish gliders you name have such
margin. But that margin has cost, and the cost is extra weight.

To some degree, the lack of margin that I mention is inescapable when
building small, inexpensive gliders. It is inescapable because when
you scale down the size of the glider you generally cannot scale down
the size of the pilot to match.

In order to make the glider climb well, you need it to have low wing
loading. But small gliders have small wings, and the pilots that they
need to carry are generally not any lighter than the pilots of larger
gliders. So to make it climb well, you make it lighter by being more
careful with materials and eliminating margin where practical.

Of course, you can make the glider small, light, and robust by using
very strong high-tech materials like pre-preg carbon like the
SparrowHawk. But then you throw inexpensive right out the window. It's
all a big compromise, and always has been.

Thanks, Bob K.

On Jun 9, 7:09*pm, "
wrote:
On Jun 9, 3:54*pm, Bob Kuykendall wrote:

On Jun 9, 11:32*am, kilocharlie kilocharlie.

wrote:
Did anyone run across any information related to Wingtips
design/availability for the PW-5. This is understood that it will negate
PW-5 World Class categorization however shell be available to all PW-5
registered uder Experimental Cert...

The only PW5's I've met in person felt so lightly built that I'd be a
bit worried about whether there is enough margin for increasing the
root bending moment as you would with span extensions. Of course,
there might be enough margin for some modestly-sized winglets but even
those will increase the root bending moment somewhat.

You can't put lipstick on a pig...

Al

It is sad that some people want to take their precious time to try to
kill soaring or at least kill the joy of soaring for others. Al, do
you not care that others may find enormous satisfaction in soaring in
these lovely gliders? PW 5s are just as much fun to fly as the
expensive ships. Yes. I found it fun to fly a Duo Discus in Omarama.
But for places like Parawan, or any place in this country, nothing can
beat the fun of a PW 5. (I have over 1,100 hours in one, nearly all on
cross-country flights, some in wave flights; it’s not just for
beginners.)

When you use this world-wide forum just to kick sand in other people’s
faces, you are making it harder for those who are working to grow the
sport. Did you get THAT much pleasure in making a snobbish and
insulting remark? Some people who criticize lower cost gliders do so
out of a fear that they could not fly a lower L/D ship cross-country
successfully.

In response to the question, the PW 5 is not a “lightly built” ship.
Oran Nicks developed plans to build a PW 5 with extension winglets.
Nicks was a highly respected aeronautical engineer, instrumental in
the design of the space shuttle and was the US representative in the
selection of the PW 5 as the World Class glider. According to his
calculations, the structural integrity of this sturdy ship could
easily allow for the extensions. He home-built a PW 5 and was working
to encourage others to do so. Not only would it have both the “class-
legal” tips and the 15 meter tips, it could be stored in a
conventional garage (without winglets), thus avoiding the cost of a
hanger and long trailer. The goal was low cost gliding for those who
don’t want to spend a huge sum of money. I hope someone will pursue
this great idea.

On Jun 10, 4:20*pm, Vsoars wrote:
On Jun 9, 7:09*pm, "
wrote:









On Jun 9, 3:54*pm, Bob Kuykendall wrote:

On Jun 9, 11:32*am, kilocharlie kilocharlie.

wrote:
Did anyone run across any information related to Wingtips
design/availability for the PW-5. This is understood that it will negate
PW-5 World Class categorization however shell be available to all PW-5
registered uder Experimental Cert...

The only PW5's I've met in person felt so lightly built that I'd be a
bit worried about whether there is enough margin for increasing the
root bending moment as you would with span extensions. Of course,
there might be enough margin for some modestly-sized winglets but even
those will increase the root bending moment somewhat.

You can't put lipstick on a pig...

Al

It is sad that some people want to take their precious time to try to
kill soaring or at least kill the joy of soaring for others. Al, do
you not care that others may find enormous satisfaction in soaring in
these lovely gliders? PW 5s are just as much fun to fly as the
expensive ships. Yes. I found it fun to fly a Duo Discus in Omarama.
But for places like Parawan, or any place in this country, nothing can
beat the fun of a PW 5. (I have over 1,100 hours in one, nearly all on
cross-country flights, some in wave flights; it’s not just for
beginners.)

True... everyone can get enjoyment from flying anything, isn't that
the joy of flight?

But I think this sport takes itself WAY to seriously....
If you show up every weekend to fly a PW5 more power to you, I guess I
need to punctuate every post with a or LOL.

I am at a point in my life where I cannot fly as much as I want
because of business and family.
But I race every night with anywhere between 15-20 guys from France
and Europe on Condor to keep the XC strategy skills alive and find a
lot of enjoyment in that.
You can find the race results on http://condor-club.eu.

My Salto is about to be finished and will be flying that... Now
that's the same span as a PW5 and out performs a PW5 in every
dimension.
So I guess the message is fly what you can but always try to fly the
best you can get your hands on.



When you use this world-wide forum just to kick sand in other people’s
faces, you are making it harder for those who are working to grow the
sport. *Did you get THAT much pleasure in making a snobbish and
insulting remark? * Some people who criticize lower cost gliders do so
out of a fear that they could not fly a lower L/D ship cross-country
successfully.

In response to the question, the PW 5 is not a “lightly built” ship.
Oran Nicks developed plans to build a PW 5 with extension winglets.
Nicks was a highly respected aeronautical engineer, instrumental in
the design of the space shuttle and was the US representative in the
selection of the PW 5 as the World Class glider. According to his
calculations, the structural integrity of this sturdy ship could
easily allow for the extensions. *He home-built a PW 5 and was working
to encourage others to do so. *Not only would it have both the “class-
legal” tips and the 15 meter tips, it could be stored in a
conventional garage (without winglets), thus avoiding the cost of a
hanger and long trailer. *The goal was low cost gliding for those who
don’t want to spend a huge sum of money. I hope someone will pursue
this great idea.

If I recall correctly the Nicks fatal wounds were from the wing root D
section invading the cockpit as it cartwheeled after hitting an
obstruction.
With no leading edge cross tube there is not enough Fuz. strength to
prevent that from happening .

The Concept in all these smaller gliders is great but IMHO execution
of some is better than others is the reality.

Cheers

Al

On Jun 11, 5:30*am, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Jun 9, 9:35*pm, RRK wrote:

Not to mention, that there is no less expensive, new glider build in
the last 20 years.

Debatable.

http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24

How much fully assembled and certified?

As I recall, our two PW5s (serial numbers 5 and 6) cost us NZ$25k
each. That would have been about 14k EUR or 20k USD at the time.

An old K6 would have been cheaper, a Libelle possibly about the same
(but unsuitable as a first single-seater), or a Cirrus quite a bit
more (ditto for low hours).

The PW5s haven't lived up to the predictions made for numbers built,
price, one class contests and so forth, but I don't think they were a
bad buy and I've had many enjoyable flights in them. I also had a lot
of very nice flights in our Janus (fall flying tail version -- ditto
about not for beginners) and now DG1000s, so it's not as if I'm
ignorant of higher performance gliders.

The PW5 is great for what it is, and for what we paid for it.

If you can sell a modern good handling brand new 15m glider for club
use for the same kind of price we paid for the PW5s then I suspect
we'd be there with out cheque books open very quickly indeed!

At 13:47 10 June 2011, kilocharlie wrote:

**** .. In a matter of fact, PW-5 is built in the "tradition" of other
polish glass gliders ( Jantar, Acro etc ...) ... strong and
over-engineered at best - LIKE TANK ...

Like a septic tank, maybe.

Sorry, but I just *can't* pass up a straight line like that one.

Jim Beckman

On 6/10/2011 9:33 PM, wrote:


True... everyone can get enjoyment from flying anything, isn't that
the joy of flight?

But I think this sport takes itself WAY to seriously....
If you show up every weekend to fly a PW5 more power to you, I guess I
need to punctuate every post with a or LOL.

Far better would be avoid this kind of disparging comment in the first
place. Any humor in this point of view drained away years ago; now it's
just a cheap shot that causes bitterness among people that should be
friends.

It's worth remembering this: if you or any other pilot has not had a
flight farther than 986 km, you've been bested by a glider with wings
2.5 meters shorter than a PW5.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Hi nice topic you have going here!