Condor

Let's not forget, guys and gals, that it's a freaking *simulation*.

Referring to Scott Manley's article in Soaring this month, of course.

Primacy, anyone?

Concerned,

Evan Ludeman / T8

Don't know what article is about, but let me second your concern over primacy issues (and bad habits too) that may be caused by such endless hours of unsupervised practice. Should be forbidden for low time pilots, IMHO. In any enviroment other than a very well focused training organisation, trouble in the making


regards,

gliderpilotGR

I haven't read the article; but I _would_ like to point out the
hypocrisy of some people criticizing simulation when they themselves
haven't tried it, or aren't as experienced with it as the people
presenting educated, detailed information.

If you yourself are afraid of the unknown or don't understand a
subject, that's fine. But don't slam something purely out of
ignorance. Learn the subject, THEN comment on it like an expert.

Thank you.

--Noel
P.S. This is a general statement, not aimed personally at anyone on
this thread.

On Friday, March 8, 2013 3:33:44 PM UTC-5, gliderpilotGR wrote:
Don't know what article is about, but let me second your concern over primacy issues (and bad habits too) that may be caused by such endless hours of unsupervised practice. Should be forbidden for low time pilots, IMHO. In any enviroment other than a very well focused training organisation, trouble in the making





regards,



gliderpilotGR

It's an article extolling the virtues of Condor for ab initio training. By the end of the article he says:

"So try to imagine the reaction, of those invested in the status quo, to this assertion:

I believe, given the proper resources, candidates for private and commerial pilot certificates with glider category ratings, could entirely manage their own flight-training development, and in large part, teach themselves to fly.

I believe they can and should be empowered to do that."

FWIW, I'm not an instructor and I'm not "invested" here. Just simply wondering if I'm the only one that's a little queasy at this prospect.

Also fwiw, I had a great time learning to fly RC using Phoenix. I also managed to crash a couple of real models really hard even after a lot of sim time, in no small part because the sim does not capture all of the flying characteristics of real models nor the characteristics of real weather.

T8

My reference is CAP Cadets. A standard question I ask before their first glider flight is "Do you fly PC flight simulators?" I then note how well they fly the glider. Invariably, those who fly simulators do vastly better than those who don't. Some Cadets can fly all the PTS maneuvers on their first flight. I agree with Scott, simulators have a place in ab-inition training especially with the trainer shortage.

Where I DO see "bad habits" is Flight Reviews.


On Friday, March 8, 2013 1:33:44 PM UTC-7, gliderpilotGR wrote:
Don't know what article is about, but let me second your concern over primacy issues (and bad habits too) that may be caused by such endless hours of unsupervised practice. Should be forbidden for low time pilots, IMHO. In any enviroment other than a very well focused training organisation, trouble in the making





regards,



gliderpilotGR

On Mar 8, 12:54*pm, Evan Ludeman wrote:

I believe, given the proper resources, candidates for private and commerial pilot certificates with glider category ratings, could entirely manage their own flight-training development, and in large part, teach themselves to fly.

I believe they can and should be empowered to do that."

FWIW, I'm not an instructor and I'm not "invested" here. *Just simply wondering if I'm the only one that's a little queasy at this prospect.


I think the key words are "proper resources". That includes training
students how to use the simulator _properly_ and what its limitations
are. I don't think Scott is arguing that people should be completely
left to their own devices from the word "go". Rather, I think he's
positing that students don't need a flight instructor looking over
their shoulder every minute of practice.

For obvious reasons we can't let students go up "solo" in a real
glider to practice maneuvers before they're ready to handle a complete
flight on their own. But in a simulation environment, a student with
proper orientation and guidance can "woodshed" certain aspects of
their flying, without constant supervision. For example: If they can't
handle landings yet, then have them pause and reset the sim after they
get into the pattern and get to base or final leg. They can _still_
learn general aircraft control, proper use of trim, turn-coordination,
and other skills without having to worry about (or even know about)
the flare and landing.

Let me go "old school" with this: Did any of your flight instructors
ever teach you "chair flying"? Where you sit in a chair and close your
eyes and talk through (or pantomime) a maneuver or part of a flight?
This is an accepted part of flight training and has been used for
decades. And the same dangers of "simulation" apply to "chair flying":
You have to understand the limits, and be wary not to practice
improperly. But if you're on-guard for those issues, you can still
derive a great benefit from such practice.

I continue to believe that one of the biggest problems with glider
training is the fact that students may only get 1 "lesson" (or day of
flying) every 1-4 weeks. That leaves a lot of time in-between to
forget skills and to impede the encoding of muscle-memory responses
(kinesthetics, or the "feel" for the controls). Since daily tows are
not practical for most of us, simulator sessions to "fill in" around
real training can be of great benefit in speeding the learning curve
and dampening the impatience and frustrations that many students go
through.

--Noel
(CFIG in-training, and user of flight simulators for 27 of the 35
years I've been alive)

Please... read the article. Then let's talk about it.

I have absolutely no axe to grind w.r.t. Condor or any other flight sim and there is absolutely no need for anyone to leap in here to defend that which isn't being attacked (e.g. the use of simulators in flight training). As mentioned previously, I've used them myself most recently to train for RC flying.

Scott's article is *much* more radical. I will not attempt to summarize. Go read it.

T8

I think that my main concern would be the frequency and quality of lookout..

It is very evident to instructors (in my UK experience of talking to some, as well as having been one) that too many pilots do not have very good lookout. There is hard evidence – the numbers of collisions – as well as instructors’ impressions during check flights. (By the way, as I have written in an article for the UK Sailplane and Gliding magazine, my lookout is not good enough either – nobody’s is, IMHO – humans are just not near perfect enough. But to get anywhere with it, one has to at least try.)

There is further evidence in videos posted by people of their flights, using in-cockpit cameras – in some, the pilot’s head hardly ever moves from the straight ahead. In others, the head is sometimes seen to turn to the inside of a turn but not to its outside.

A major feature of initial instruction in gliders in the UK is the emphasis on lookout, particularly before turning – and lookout all round, not just in the direction of turn. Is this the same in other countries?

This is repeated in subsequent flights – many instructors block the stick being moved if the student tries to turn before looking out.
I have never seen a simulator that even simulated nearby gliders that are potential collision risks, let alone seen anyone trying proper all-round “lookout” in a simulator. I think primacy is the thing here – if students do not practice this from the start, they are unlikely to remember later.

I no longer instruct, but do have check flights every year. I expect my lookout to be monitored, and commented upon if not seen as adequate. No simulator at present does that, AFAIK.

Chris N

On Friday, March 8, 2013 4:59:56 PM UTC-6, Evan Ludeman wrote:
Please... read the article. Then let's talk about it.



I have absolutely no axe to grind w.r.t. Condor or any other flight sim and there is absolutely no need for anyone to leap in here to defend that which isn't being attacked (e.g. the use of simulators in flight training). As mentioned previously, I've used them myself most recently to train for RC flying.



Scott's article is *much* more radical. I will not attempt to summarize. Go read it.



T8

Scott Manley made an excellent presentation regarding the subject at our Chicagoland Soaring and Safety Seminar last month (thanks again, Scott!). It may have been a sneak preview of the next 'Soaring' article his referring to in this month's column so I won't go into the details. I believe his comments on training ab initio students exclusively on Condor are based on facts. However, it was training that he and other CFIGs supervised in on-line sessions with the student in another state. His experiences - which he documented with video in his talk - will surprise you.
Herb Kilian
Chicagoland Glider Council

Noel I'm curious to see what you think about Condor and simulation after becoming a real CFIG and teaching for a while. If I had a nickel for every time I had a student say "well in condor..." right before missing traffic underneath us, above us, birds circling, etc, I'd have a shiny new JS-1. I had to spend more time with a few students unlearning bad habits from computer flying that I think the computer flying actually saved. I fly a sim every 6 months for work in the most realistic simulators that exist, so I definitely agree they have their place, but I see things like condor as more of a way to explore cross country techniques. I agree it can be a good teaching tool and can serve as an example of basic aircraft mechanics, it will never be a satisfactory substitute for real stick time. I've heard all the arguments, including "you can learn to box the wake," okay, but you can't feel the nose being pulled, you can't feel the wake, and you can't get a REAL sight picture. To me, a better substitute for learning something like that is use a gopro video taken during a wake box maneuver, then go fly it.

Granted I learned on grass, dragging my tail, and looking out the window, and I teach accordingly...so take all this for what it's worth...




On Friday, March 8, 2013 4:44:34 PM UTC-6, noel.wade wrote:
On Mar 8, 12:54*pm, Evan Ludeman wrote:



I believe, given the proper resources, candidates for private and commerial pilot certificates with glider category ratings, could entirely manage their own flight-training development, and in large part, teach themselves to fly.



I believe they can and should be empowered to do that."



FWIW, I'm not an instructor and I'm not "invested" here. *Just simply wondering if I'm the only one that's a little queasy at this prospect.





I think the key words are "proper resources". That includes training

students how to use the simulator _properly_ and what its limitations

are. I don't think Scott is arguing that people should be completely

left to their own devices from the word "go". Rather, I think he's

positing that students don't need a flight instructor looking over

their shoulder every minute of practice.



For obvious reasons we can't let students go up "solo" in a real

glider to practice maneuvers before they're ready to handle a complete

flight on their own. But in a simulation environment, a student with

proper orientation and guidance can "woodshed" certain aspects of

their flying, without constant supervision. For example: If they can't

handle landings yet, then have them pause and reset the sim after they

get into the pattern and get to base or final leg. They can _still_

learn general aircraft control, proper use of trim, turn-coordination,

and other skills without having to worry about (or even know about)

the flare and landing.



Let me go "old school" with this: Did any of your flight instructors

ever teach you "chair flying"? Where you sit in a chair and close your

eyes and talk through (or pantomime) a maneuver or part of a flight?

This is an accepted part of flight training and has been used for

decades. And the same dangers of "simulation" apply to "chair flying":

You have to understand the limits, and be wary not to practice

improperly. But if you're on-guard for those issues, you can still

derive a great benefit from such practice.



I continue to believe that one of the biggest problems with glider

training is the fact that students may only get 1 "lesson" (or day of

flying) every 1-4 weeks. That leaves a lot of time in-between to

forget skills and to impede the encoding of muscle-memory responses

(kinesthetics, or the "feel" for the controls). Since daily tows are

not practical for most of us, simulator sessions to "fill in" around

real training can be of great benefit in speeding the learning curve

and dampening the impatience and frustrations that many students go

through.



--Noel

(CFIG in-training, and user of flight simulators for 27 of the 35

years I've been alive)