Program Letter time again

On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 10:02:36 AM UTC-7, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Wednesday, 8 January 2014 09:03:54 UTC-7, wrote:

I suspect there are many pilots of experimentals who forget to submit anything. Does anyone have any stories of what has happened to them or others that they know who had a problem because they did not submit a letter? I am not asking for permission not to send one, just interested in what can happen if you don't...







Bruno - B4



I did not send in a letter for 2 years when I first got my DG303. When contacting SLC FSDO I was required to get a new airworthiness certificate and go through the complete inspection including having to have so many flights and hours from my home airport before I could fly more than 50 miles from my home airport.



Just do it

I may have missed an article or discussion about this previously. The current FAA Order 8130.2G w/chg1 is written rather differently from prior versions. There is no longer specific reference to SSA and FAI competitions and awards, but a more broad and general "including organized air races or sail plane competitive events". There is no longer any mention of pre- or post- moratorium differences and a relaxation on the need to reissue operating limitations (allowing revisions) on post-moratorium aircraft upon change of location, owner, or FSDO. I have no direct experience with this at the moment, but it appears to be a good thing. Formerly, pre-moratorium gliders did not require a program letter, but this revision appears to require an annual program letter for all experimental exhibition and air racing aircraft. Furthermore, there is no mention of proficiency areas or proficiency flights pursuant to flying in competition, records or awards for Group I aircraft (gliders).

Previously, I encountered several post-moratorium glider pilots that weren't submitting program letters. Now it appears to be a universal requirement..

Comments?

Frank Whiteley

On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 8:03:54 AM UTC-8, wrote:
I suspect there are many pilots of experimentals who forget to submit anything...

Good point, Bruno! However, it bears mentioning that not every experimental sailplane is subject to the requirement for the yearly program letter. Unless specified in the operating limitations (and I have never seen such a requirement), it only applies to Experimental, Racing and Exhibition, and does not apply to Experimental, Amateur-Built.

Thanks, Bob K.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n8ofpcxfpc...er%20Blank.doc

Blank Program Letter

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lu8vzoswxa...AA_8130.2G.pdf

The latest FAA Policy letter on Certification

I heard back from my FSDO rep. He said it was OK to e-mail him my program letter, no need to send by USPS.

For those who don't feel the need to submit a program letter, do you know that a current copy of the program letter is required to be carried in the aircraft? If you don't have one it might make for an "interesting" ramp check...

-John, Q3

On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 2:08:37 PM UTC-5, Frank Whiteley wrote:

I encountered several post-moratorium glider pilots that weren't submitting program letters.

That would be understandable if "post-moratorium glider pilots = "postmortem glider pilots".

If this "moratorium event" is still relevant, please explain.

On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 12:42:06 PM UTC-5, Soartech wrote:
On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 11:03:54 AM UTC-5, wrote: I suspect there are many pilots of experimentals who forget to submit anything. Does anyone have any stories of what has happened to them or others that they know who had a problem because they did not submit a letter? I am not asking for permission not to send one, just interested in what can happen if you don't... Bruno - B4 If you don't send it they will never know as they don't check. It is a ridiculous exercise in red tape. I have never sent one in.

You should be aware that your actions(or lack thereof), mean that you do not conform to the operating limitations that are part of your airworthiness certificate.
It takes me about 45 minutes to do letters for all 3 of my Ex- exhibition/air racing ships.
Take the little time and do the letter and avoid the risk of an unairworthy glider.
FWIW, when I do condition inspections, if there is no program letter, the glider does not pass the inspection. Yep, I'm a prick, but the guy signing off is representing that everything is correct, including required documents on board.
UH

On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 11:08:37 AM UTC-8, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 10:02:36 AM UTC-7, Ron Gleason wrote:

On Wednesday, 8 January 2014 09:03:54 UTC-7, wrote:



I suspect there are many pilots of experimentals who forget to submit anything. Does anyone have any stories of what has happened to them or others that they know who had a problem because they did not submit a letter? I am not asking for permission not to send one, just interested in what can happen if you don't...















Bruno - B4







I did not send in a letter for 2 years when I first got my DG303. When contacting SLC FSDO I was required to get a new airworthiness certificate and go through the complete inspection including having to have so many flights and hours from my home airport before I could fly more than 50 miles from my home airport.







Just do it



I may have missed an article or discussion about this previously. The current FAA Order 8130.2G w/chg1 is written rather differently from prior versions. There is no longer specific reference to SSA and FAI competitions and awards, but a more broad and general "including organized air races or sail plane competitive events". There is no longer any mention of pre- or post- moratorium differences and a relaxation on the need to reissue operating limitations (allowing revisions) on post-moratorium aircraft upon change of location, owner, or FSDO. I have no direct experience with this at the moment, but it appears to be a good thing. Formerly, pre-moratorium gliders did not require a program letter, but this revision appears to require an annual program letter for all experimental exhibition and air racing aircraft. Furthermore, there is no mention of proficiency areas or proficiency flights pursuant to flying in competition, records or awards for Group I aircraft (gliders).



Previously, I encountered several post-moratorium glider pilots that weren't submitting program letters. Now it appears to be a universal requirement.

On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 3:39:54 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 2:08:37 PM UTC-5, Frank Whiteley wrote:



I encountered several post-moratorium glider pilots that weren't submitting program letters.



That would be understandable if "post-moratorium glider pilots = "postmortem glider pilots".



If this "moratorium event" is still relevant, please explain.

That's part of the point, things changed with the publication of the G version. It was much revised to LSA. Any experimental racing and/or exhibition glider operating limitations dating before 2011 will likely contain verbage derived from the version in effect when the operating limitations for that glider were created. The pre- and post- moratorium dates were significant at one point as were proficiency flight/areas. Depending on how they are written for a particular aircraft may drive whether an owner wants a new set. However, as others have pointed out, the program letter is part of the airworthiness certificate, as are the operating limitations and must be carried on board. However, until the G version was published, there was no requirement for an annual program letter for pre-moratorium gliders and owners were free to operate without them. 3-4 years ago, there was discussion that the FAA would have 100 percent hands-on checks of all experimental aircraft. No idea where that manpower was coming from, but it was about the time the re-registration fees started. As before, those doing condition inspections may or may not concern themselves with program letters, thus it's a pilot issue. I don't recall discussion of the change. FAA Order 8130.2Gch2 is freely downloadable from faa.gov. Those involved with experiment racing/exhibition group I gliders should have a copy. Section 10 is most relevant, but other parts apply.

On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 5:38:29 PM UTC-7, Craig Funston wrote:
On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 11:08:37 AM UTC-8, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 10:02:36 AM UTC-7, Ron Gleason wrote:



On Wednesday, 8 January 2014 09:03:54 UTC-7, wrote:







I suspect there are many pilots of experimentals who forget to submit anything. Does anyone have any stories of what has happened to them or others that they know who had a problem because they did not submit a letter? I am not asking for permission not to send one, just interested in what can happen if you don't...































Bruno - B4















I did not send in a letter for 2 years when I first got my DG303. When contacting SLC FSDO I was required to get a new airworthiness certificate and go through the complete inspection including having to have so many flights and hours from my home airport before I could fly more than 50 miles from my home airport.















Just do it







I may have missed an article or discussion about this previously. The current FAA Order 8130.2G w/chg1 is written rather differently from prior versions. There is no longer specific reference to SSA and FAI competitions and awards, but a more broad and general "including organized air races or sail plane competitive events". There is no longer any mention of pre- or post- moratorium differences and a relaxation on the need to reissue operating limitations (allowing revisions) on post-moratorium aircraft upon change of location, owner, or FSDO. I have no direct experience with this at the moment, but it appears to be a good thing. Formerly, pre-moratorium gliders did not require a program letter, but this revision appears to require an annual program letter for all experimental exhibition and air racing aircraft. Furthermore, there is no mention of proficiency areas or proficiency flights pursuant to flying in competition, records or awards for Group I aircraft (gliders).







Previously, I encountered several post-moratorium glider pilots that weren't submitting program letters. Now it appears to be a universal requirement.







Comments?







Frank Whiteley



Frank are you saying that pre-moratorium gliders (i.e. all racing-exhibition gliders) now need to have program letters?



Thanks,

Craig 7Q

I'm not 100 percent on this one and have approached the SSA Government Liaison Committee.

Frank

On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 6:38:29 PM UTC-6, Craig Funston wrote:
Frank are you saying that pre-moratorium gliders (i.e. all racing-exhibition gliders) now need to have program letters? Thanks, Craig 7Q

Look at YOUR operating limitations. If they say you have to submit a letter, then you have to submit a letter. If they don't then you don't. I have to for some of mine, and not for others.

Steve Leonard