On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:04:12 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:

When you consider that the Glasair is a *retractible* and if it is worth
$250K then $7000 doesn't seem too far out of line.

Not at all.

As a quick check, the G-III kit is basically $61,000 with the fast
build options. The engine, at a discount, is about $46,000, the prop
is going to run maybe $10,000 (give or take a tad) for $117,000 and
all we have are a pile of parts with an engine and prop. Figure at
least another $40,000 for a full IFR panel and that is being frugal.
I'd figure at least $60,000 in the panel for a total of $177,000 and
you still have a pile of parts and probably 4000 hours of effort to
make an airplane out of them.

Sure the frugally minded can find the engine, prop, and panel parts
used for a lot less and figure their time as nothing, but the
insurance company doesn't see it that way.


Mike
MU-2


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:V5lBb.481595$Tr4.1326775@attbi_s03...
I was quoted less than $6,000 for the G-III about a year ago although
it may be higher now.

Our friends who bought our Warrior inquired about purchasing a Lancair kit
at OSH '03. When the salesman found out they were 500-hour, VFR pilots,

What would he have done had they been talking about an A36 Bonanza, or
a Baron?
My first insurance break came at 600 hours, then for the hours flown
in make and model, then per year, and finally a paltry 5% discount for
the instrument rating.

In the one case you have two low time pilots with no high performance
or retract time, looking at flying something that has the equivalent
to the flying characteristics of a P-51 and some complex systems
(assuming you are talking about the IV-P). I've seen IV-Ps listed at
half a million. I have no idea if they sold at that, but as it'd be
difficult to complete a well equipped one for under $250,000 they
probably did.

The 320, 360 and Legacy are different birds, but still a really big
transition for a pilot who has 300 to 500 hours flying fixed gear, non
complex aircraft. The Legacy is a bit larger with a lot more HP, but
"in my opinion" better behaved than the 320 and 360.

In the case of the friend building the G-III, it depends on his
experience.

he
didn't want to even discuss insurance.

We have a friend who is finally (after 10 years!) finishing his GlasAir.
It's retractable, with a 300 HP O-540, with a $60K panel -- and completely
uninsurable. Even with his university payscale, he admits there is no way
in the world he could afford to fully insure it.

I was under the impression that universities didn't pay all that well
compared to industry.

If he has less than a 1000 hours with plenty of high
performance/complex/retract time he should be able to find comparable
insurance for a quarter million dollar airplane.


I've got a $100K plane, and pay less than $1300 per year for full coverage
on two pilots. To me, it just doesn't make any sense to buy a $250 K
airplane, (as in the case of a Cirrus) and then pay $15K per year to
insure

That's over twice what I was quoted a year ago for the G-III, but I'm
not low time with no high performance/complex/retract time. OTOH I
don't figure 1300 hours is high time either...nor did they when I
looked at insuring a TBM-700. The rates weren't bad for a plane of
that price range (I won't use the "M" word.) at $25,000 per year, but
I would have had to put in the equivalent of 200 hours dual. IE, the
first 200 hours required a CFII copilot and specific make and model
training for both of us(believe it was twice the first year and yearly
there after)

it. You're getting just 2.5 times more value (less, really, considering
depreciation), and paying more then TEN times more annually to insure it?

Much of that cost depends on how much *faster* you will be flying. It
also depends in the case of the Cirrus of some very costly repairs and
new complex systems (glass cockpit). If you pop that chute it will be
extremely expensive. It gets very, very expensive to be safer. Plus
the plane is of a new type construction and is only developing a
history and that makes it an unknown. With unknowns the industry is
going to err on the safe side (for them). If many of those chutes get
popped the rates will most likely go up even more.



That's nuts.

Worse, it eliminates many people who, like my friends, could afford the
$1000-per-month payments on a Cirrus (spread over 20 years), but could not
swing the extra $1250 per month to insure it.

The plane has the potential for some very expensive repairs.
How about the new Lancair production aircraft? How do the rates run on
those? They are fast, glass, and a new technology, but with fixed
gear and no chute to tear them apart.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 23:27:04 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

On the contrary, MOST experimentals ARE insurable.

Well, in the same sense that Betty Grable's legs were "insurable".

The only experimental aircraft with affordable insurance that I know of
is
the RV line. I've talked to the Glasair and Lancair people (and the
Cirrus
people, in the certificated category), and they all just try to change
the
subject when you bring up insurance. They ALL try to gloss over the
fact
that you will be paying upwards of $15K per YEAR for full coverage.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

I'm sorry, but in my world, that's "uninsurable"...